Job Discussion Forums

[shanewarne]

I've been living in vietnam for almost a year now and a couple of the schools i've been working at, are starting to offer full-time contracts. In particular, one school is offering a 100 hour a month contract, with 6 days holiday pay and sick leave. Now that might sound great, except they only pay $1200-1400 (before tax) per month depending on experience and qualifications. My other school is offering a similiar package too, but for 40 hours a week.
At the moment i'm working a 30 hour week and i should take home over $2000 (before tax). Now I realise there are pros and cons with a contract and i know due to the economic crisis things are tight at the moment, but i refuse to go on a full time contract. There is however people out there who will and because of this, they are picking up all the hours. For instance at my school, me and a few other long term teachers have only 2 classes each. Where as the new teacher who's on a contract has his whole 100 hour a month filled up with classes. The more experienced teachers are being pushed out and being replaced by backpackers willing to work long hours for less money.
Has anyone else experienced this yet?

[London Bridge]

[mcsensei]

I'm on a full time contract. I didn't realize that made be a backpacker.

The most I've ever taught for my school in Vietnam has been 25 hours a week, and most fulltimers at my school are in the low 20s.

I'd guess that teachers doing 30 to 40 hours a week are doing minimal planning.

[indigorawa]

There are all kinds of deals out there. Somebody working 30-40 hours a week on contract for 1200-1400 is GETTING RIPPED. Ho boy, how's that extra A-hole?

The real problem isn't these new contractual situations, which the institution is after because of visa, tax, and employment regulations. The real problem is that Vietnam is not a good place for a professional teacher. There are some decent jobs in the private high schools, a few of the universities, etc., but outside these limited opportunities, the majority suck. They don't need a qualified teacher (though they request it). They don't want a qualified teacher (they demand that you teach their curriculum and pass all students regardless of effort or performance). Thus, the "backpacker", as s/he is often called, rule the marketplace.

Rightfully so!! This place should and should always be for backpackers. Vietnamese institutions and the students themselves are not ready to become educated, nor is it their aim. Institutions and students have a symbiotic relationship of pay and go. They only need a WHITE face in the room to legitimize the process -- everything else is just another page of unwritten drama.

Did I imply that they are racists? Ooops!

Given a choice of receiving a high score on an IELTs test or TOEFL test and actually becoming competent in L2, most students would accept the high score, no matter the means. Cheating is a basic human condition and ethics don't exist, since it's illegal to teach philosophy in vietnam. Even law students never study philosophy.

The majority of students don't know who Karl Marx, Freidrich Engels or Vladimir Lenin are. They all believe they are educated, but in fact, know nothing. If you even try to tamper with this Orwellian scenario, then you are trying to be a real teacher -- forget about it.

Backpackers should and always will rule this area.

[inky]

'indigo,' you are doing a real disservice here. You are bordering on lying, in the sense that you are completely distorting the real situation for qualified teachers in Vietnam. And you are the one who sounds racist, by the way, in addition to bitter and cynical. I'm not interested in criticizing you personally, but it must be stated for people looking for factual information that much of what you have written is simply untrue.

[Green Acres]

I don't know about the current situation in Vietnam, but I have taught there before. "inky" seems to be an apologist, and is seeking out an agenda. "indigorawa" is a bit extreme, but factual.

Answer these questions:

1. Is there still a two-tiered (or three-tiered) pay scheme at most schools? When I was there, Vietnamese teachers made about 25% of Western Caucasians, other native speakers of English not Caucasion made about 50% of their Caucasian colleagues. I knew Viet-kieu teachers who would not be paid the same as their Caucasian colleagues.

2. Do schools require a photograph be applied to your CV or resume (this practice is illegal in the western world, because it is deemed...)?

3. Have you been in an accident or altercation that involved the interjection of police or outside forces? Were you treated fairly?

4. Do you see any non-Caucasian teachers on advertising posters and flyers, or on the webpages of prospective employers?

I have answers to these questions, and while I think there is a little bit of racism in everyone (like evil exists in everyone), I don't want to say someone is racist, or that a whole population is so. This is too extreme a position, and does not exist (anywhere, really). The point of this exercise is to explore the actual working standards of a country, and to look deeply at what kind of employee they are trying to hire. I agree with "indigorawa" in that "backpackers" are very welcome. I would also add that by their nature, the backpacker is off to new lands before they can become involved and/or disenchanted, which makes them excellent employees (having a positive attitude and energy to bring to the classroom).

[Magic8ball]

[ajc19810]

[Green Acres]

I think the point being made, and rightly so, is that the education system here does not provide any basic knowledge or worldly knowledge. As much as one might hear about 1984 or Animal Farm (a banned publication, btw) characterizations of communist governments, one normally thinks that at least the indoctrination process would be complete -- ergo the references to communist icons -- which I would have to agree with indigorawa....are not known in the (this) communist country.

It would be like the Americans never knowing who Socrates, Julius Ceaser, or Adam Smith was . Granted, many don't know, but entire classes of college students? Come on, we (everyone) haven't dumbed them down so much. Right?

If one were to look across the China sea at another communist country, where the great leader and his father have been the source of almost every invention and philosophy known to man, then the absurdity of not knowing about the fathers of the only state religion (communism), becomes paramount. If one were to talk to the average Vietnamese citizen, and even a great number of college students, the fact that they don't know something may not come as a surprise, however, the ways in which history and time have been distorted in the name of social control, idol worship, and self-aggrandizement will surprise any teacher of any field.

The fact that people in Australia don't know who Karl Marx was is not culturally significant. In every communist country I have known, the people knew who he was. They were also educated in communist philosophy, with a complete understanding of the role of the state in economics and life.

The word, "humanities," until recently, was not available for use in universities since they would not be able to have departments in this field. Philosophy is also forbidden. Stick that in your B.A. and smoke it!? For anyone planning to work and teach in Vietnam, then I suggest doing your own research and drawing your own conclusions. Just remember, as has been with almost every communist country, information and education have been strictly controlled and all programs in the country must answer to government officials in charge of limiting and controlling information. Before my departure, there was a group of viet kyu that were arrested and shot for operating their own radio station in a southern province.

[MisterLinguistix]

I am wondering if there is a significant difference between the education level/quality of the N. Viets versus the S. Viets.

When I lived and taught in S. Vietnam (~ 3 years ago) I landed a job at one of the news agencies (language institute), teaching to the N. Vietnamese journalists.

The behavior of these students was very different than that of the S. Vietnamese students I had dealt with at the private language schools. In some ways they were more serious about learning. In other ways they were more difficult.

To be honest, I never did make it to N. Vietnam, as I got burnt out on Vietnam and decided to move on. I was also warned by a Vietnamese friend that it is very difficult for a foreigner to get along well in the North.
I did make it as far North as Nha Trang where I stayed for about 3 months but didn't teach.

Any thoughts on this?

p.s. Green Acres and Indigowara : I enjoy reading your posts, and appreciate your sharpness and objectivity. I will PM you both when I have reached the 25 post minimum.

[spycatcher reincarnated]

The kids that come out of the Hanoi Amsterdam school are way better than the best kids in the South. Generally the kids in Hanoi score much higher than the kids in the south do in their exams.

Also,

Many people have problems accessing this site so I have copied the article below:

http://www.intellasia.net/news/articles/business/111268485.shtml


A Nielsen Co's research report titled "Omnibus" says that Vietnam is one of the countries having different types of consumers; especially there is a big difference between the Hanoi and HCM City (Saigon) consumers.

The research was conducted between April and May 2009 in both big cities, showing that Hanoian consumers are affected strongly by other people than those in HCM City where consumers live for current time and are less worried about the future like Hanoi's.

According to "Personal Finance Monitor" of Nielsen in 2008, consumers in HCM City are willing to borrow bank loans or money from other finance institutions for their consumption demands while up to 57 percent of Hanoian said they would not take any loan from banks or finance institutions for the purpose.

However, the Hanoian enjoy luxury products, a habit different from their saving hobby. Around 71 percent of surveyed people in Hanoi said that they indulged in luxury goods. Hanoian consumers are easily attracted by high class products such as mobile phone or cosmetic. 52 percent were willing to pay high price for high class products while 79 percent said that purchasing and using a high class in long term would be more economic.

On the contrary, people living in HCM City are quick consumers who immediately buy goods if necessary. They also like high class products but 48 percent of surveyed people here said that such luxury goods are only for boasters. And they will only spend on essential things rather than purchase for boasting.

Vietnamese consumers are clearly aware of the economic crisis. Northern people are more optimistic about the future than southern consumers but they still complained about strong affects of the crisis.

The Hanoian pay much attention to upward trend of food prices, sustainable job, payment bill, petroleum price and future of their children while consumers of HCM City are interested in health, payment bills, sustainable jobs, and the balance between job, life and debts.

Both northern and southern consumers are afraid of the future. They all had to cut down spending for luxury goods and calculate the living expenditure more carefully including saving electricity and gas costs.

Hanoian consumers said they would cut down expenses but still use previous brand names whereas those in HCM City will keep previous consumption spending and purchase cheaper brands.
Aaron Cross, general director of Nielsen Vietnam stated that Vietnamese enterprises need to diversify business strategies and products to meet both cities' consumption demand.

[jayasia]

"...The kids that come out of the Hanoi Amsterdam school are way better than the best kids in the South. Generally the kids in Hanoi score much higher than the kids in the south do in their exams....".


hmmmm....interesting....seems they don't even need to attend classes to get top scores....?


http://english.vietnamnet.vn/education/2009/07/856200/

read... "The young princes and princesses have an easy ride"

[inky]

jayasia, did you actually read that article? It tells about very rich, spoiled individuals, who could just as easily be from Saigon as from Hanoi. Or from Manila, for that matter. There is no mention of Hanoi Amsterdam HS. Do you know any students who attend Amsterdam? If you did, you wouldn't have made a connection between their school and the spoiled brats mentioned in this article.

[jayasia]

listen up pinky...

the HA school is a school for gifted kids.

so what has getting "high scores" in comparisionto to the rest of the population means??

if they're gifted.....duh?

there are 3 gifted high schools in hcmc... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Hong_Phong_High_School


obviously, they will get "top marks"

who's comparing gifted kids to the average joe?




we're talking about education not consumerism?


the only brat i'm seeing is pinky.

i'll reiterate again. what does the following mean...?

"...The kids that come out of the Hanoi Amsterdam school are way better than the best kids in the South. Generally the kids in Hanoi score much higher than the kids in the south do in their exams....".


it's someone's opinion?

or a fact?

what indicators/standards/ statistics can anyway show to me?

instead of making il-informed wild assumptions...prove it?


harvard/mit/oxbridge graduates are a more clever bunch than the average graduate, anywhere in da world.
whether they're in africa,asia or northern queensland......so freakin wot?

for the record, going to a viet uni means didly squat!
the education system sucks here, thats why u fit in well here pinky?
blend in with the mediocrity...?

[Green Acres]

"You can't have any pudding, if you don't eat your meat!"