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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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 Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| Apsara wrote: |
| You aren't supposed to get it at the airport... |
Not sure what that means. I don�t read Japanese to read the administrative statues, but I doubt an equivalent phrase of �supposed to� is contained in the rules. It is part of their job at airport immigration or not.
It is a matter of time for me. I do not want to take time off work pay a special visit to get a re-entry stamp at the immigration office. It works best for me to get it at the airport. If by rule they have to accept permit applications at the airport, I don�t care a lot about how they feel about the hassle of doing their job. |
I probably should have stressed can a little more. You can, or you can, you can... but what I mean by that is that it is possible although I can't confirm that they will do it in every case. If immigration feel that you haven't left enough time for them to process it then they may simply decide not to bother and tell you that you won't be able to make your flight.
I know someone who did have his re-entry permit processed at the airport and they made him jump through all kinds of humiliating hoops before they did so, angrily explaining that this was not the way he should have gone about it and saying that it was his responsibility to get the re-entry permit beforehand. As it happens they did end up issuing him a re-entry permit and told him that he'd better not ever try and pull a stunt like that again.
I suppose it is up to you if you want to try it. Please report back here and tell us how it goes, it may make for interesting reading. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:19 am Post subject: |
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Okay, let me reword. By "not supposed to", I meant that it is not standard procedure to get it at the airport and in cases I've heard of where someone has forgotten/didn't know about the re-entry permit they have been given a very hard time by the officials before grudgingly being given the stamp. They are not really under any obligation to give it to you (Immigration generally does not "have to" issue anything to anyone) and may well just say "too bad", especially if you show up at the airport looking like you had the time to prepare but couldn't be bothered going to the main Immigration office- as Bobby said, if you are willing to take that chance, please let us know how it went for you.
Incidentally, in the Japanese versions there is a lot of vagueness and words like "may" used by the ministry of justice on their Immigration pages- many things are on a case-by-case basis, very little is concrete. |
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wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| It is a matter of time for me. I do not want to take time off work pay a special visit to get a re-entry stamp at the immigration office. It works best for me to get it at the airport. If by rule they have to accept permit applications at the airport, I don�t care a lot about how they feel about the hassle of doing their job. |
Use your actual days off? |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| Apsara wrote: |
| You aren't supposed to get it at the airport... |
Not sure what that means. I don�t read Japanese to read the administrative statues, but I doubt an equivalent phrase of �supposed to� is contained in the rules. It is part of their job at airport immigration or not.
It is a matter of time for me. I do not want to take time off work pay a special visit to get a re-entry stamp at the immigration office. It works best for me to get it at the airport. If by rule they have to accept permit applications at the airport, I don�t care a lot about how they feel about the hassle of doing their job. |
Let us know how that goes for you. You might find some "irregularities" occurring with your passport that the immigration officers will need to "consider". I strongly suggest not playing games with these people, they always win. Always. |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: |
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To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
Well discretion is built into the system and it helps to create flexibility. It can also create capriciousness. If you refuse to get your re-entry permit before hand because it's inconvenient for you then, in their passive aggressive way, the Japanese will make things inconvenient for you. They're not going to refuse you a re-entry permit but they may make you wait for it. If that causes you to miss your plane well then that's your bad luck. |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
Goodness me young lady, you are persistent!
Perhaps you should think of a case like this as being similar to driving over the speed limit. It is possible to be let off by a lenient official but it isn't something you can demand of them.
I can't say for sure what the "rule" is but if you were to turn up and lecture immigration on what the rules are and throw around insinuations of corruption then good luck. No matter how convincing you find your own arguments here on a forum and no matter how well you may (or may not) convince anyone here of their logic it won't matter in the slightest when you get to the airport.
I would advise you strongly not to try and get the re-entry permit at the airport and slightly regret mentioning it now, but if you disregard mine and others' advice here then I'll be all ears later on.
All the best,
Bob  |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
Getting off topic now, but actually I disagree- Japan is known for big business and bureaucracy and government officials being in each other's back pockets, and corruption is actually rife- the leader of the major opposition party stepped down just recently due to the fallout from a corruption scandal involving one of his staff.
Immigration officials have the discretion to grant permits and visas to one individual but not another on a case-by-case basis, not only here but in most other countries I believe.
In any case, you will probably get your re-entry permit at the airport and only get some minor grumbling from the officials- the thing is that no-one can guarantee you that. There is no fixed rule, it's case-by-case, and it's up to you if you want to test that. |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| BobbyBan wrote: |
| passport220 wrote: |
To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
Goodness me young lady, you are persistent!
Perhaps you should think of a case like this as being similar to driving over the speed limit. It is possible to be let off by a lenient official but it isn't something you can demand of them.
I can't say for sure what the "rule" is but if you were to turn up and lecture immigration on what the rules are and throw around insinuations of corruption then good luck. No matter how convincing you find your own arguments here on a forum and no matter how well you may (or may not) convince anyone here of their logic it won't matter in the slightest when you get to the airport.
I would advise you strongly not to try and get the re-entry permit at the airport and slightly regret mentioning it now, but if you disregard mine and others' advice here then I'll be all ears later on.
All the best,
Bob |
Perhaps I should not look at it as a speeder who has broken the speed limit. A speeder has broken the law and is not entitled to demand anything of the officer; someone who shows up at the airport without a re-entry permit has not. Not similar at all, easy to see but thanks for the condescending post. It is why it would be useful to know what the �law� is in this case.
I don�t go anyplace asking for something for nothing. I would not go to the airport demanding something I am not entitled to. If the law requires me to get a re-entry permit before I arrive at the airport, that is what I will do. If it is a case of immigration bureaucrats giving people the stink eye for making them do their job, I will look at it a different way. I am traveling to the airport with another teacher who has a much earlier flight so I will have time to burn. Maybe someone with actual information and not just snarky banter can post, it would be what I was looking for. |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| BobbyBan wrote: |
| passport220 wrote: |
To give an individual officer the discretion to grant permission to one person and not the other is a recipe for corruption. Japan is generally known for good government practices.
Does any one actually know what the rule is? |
Goodness me young lady, you are persistent!
Perhaps you should think of a case like this as being similar to driving over the speed limit. It is possible to be let off by a lenient official but it isn't something you can demand of them.
I can't say for sure what the "rule" is but if you were to turn up and lecture immigration on what the rules are and throw around insinuations of corruption then good luck. No matter how convincing you find your own arguments here on a forum and no matter how well you may (or may not) convince anyone here of their logic it won't matter in the slightest when you get to the airport.
I would advise you strongly not to try and get the re-entry permit at the airport and slightly regret mentioning it now, but if you disregard mine and others' advice here then I'll be all ears later on.
All the best,
Bob |
Perhaps I should not look at it as a speeder who has broken the speed limit. A speeder has broken the law; someone who shows up at the airport without a re-entry permit has not. Not similar at all, easy to see but thanks for the condensing post. It is why it would be useful to know what the �law� is in this case.
I don�t go anyplace asking for something for nothing. I would not go to the airport demanding something I am not entitled to. If the law requires me to get a re-entry permit before I arrive at the airport, that is what I will do. If it is a case of immigration bureaucrats giving people the stink eye for making them do their job, I will look at it a different way. I am traveling to the airport with another teacher who has a much earlier flight so I will have time to burn. Maybe someone with actual information and not just snarky banter can post, it would be what I was looking for. |
| Quote: |
Article 26(Re-entry Permission)
(1) The Minister of Justice may grant re-entry permission to an alien in accordance
with the procedures provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance upon an
application from an alien residing in Japan (except for those who have received
permission for provisional landing and those who have received the permission for
landing provided for in Articles 14 to 1 and is to depart from Japan with the
intention of re-entering Japan prior to the date of expiration of his/her period of
stay (or the period within which he/her is eligible to stay in cases where he/she
has no fixed period of stay). In this case, the Minister of Justice may grant
multiple re-entry permission as the said permission, based on an application from
the alien, if considered to be appropriate. |
http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/hourei/data/icrra.pdf
Vague, isn't it?
Some more info.
http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/english/tetuduki/kanri/shyorui/06.html
Seems you don't have to go in person. Problem solved. |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Thanks it is all good. It just does not clarify if the airport immigration office is a �regular� issuer of such permits (�the procedures provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance� would contain the details).
Generally speaking, it would seem to me that I am applying for a re-entry permit at the airport with an immigration officer just as I would at a regional office. I don�t think the airport set up a special procedure to grant a re-entry permit to anyone based on how low they bowed.
If I show up with enough processing time and all the required paperwork, it seems like I can get it done. If someone knows for a fact this is not true, please let me know.
Thanks! |
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David W
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 457
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
Thanks it is all good. It just does not clarify if the airport immigration office is a �regular� issuer of such permits (�the procedures provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance� would contain the details).
Generally speaking, it would seem to me that I am applying for a re-entry permit at the airport with an immigration officer just as I would at a regional office. I don�t think the airport set up a special procedure to grant a re-entry permit to anyone based on how low they bowed.
If I show up with enough processing time and all the required paperwork, it seems like I can get it done. If someone knows for a fact this is not true, please let me know.
Thanks! |
Obviously the officers at the airport would have some discretion to grant re-entry permits as the immigration offices are not open 24/7 but emergencies can happen at any time so if you had a genuine emergency there'd be no problem. If you think they can't and/or won't refuse your request at the airport then I think you'd be in for a surprise but, no, I don't know for certain. Try it and see how you go! Extra points if you tell them "just do your job"! |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| David W wrote: |
| passport220 wrote: |
Thanks it is all good. It just does not clarify if the airport immigration office is a �regular� issuer of such permits (�the procedures provided for by a Ministry of Justice ordinance� would contain the details).
Generally speaking, it would seem to me that I am applying for a re-entry permit at the airport with an immigration officer just as I would at a regional office. I don�t think the airport set up a special procedure to grant a re-entry permit to anyone based on how low they bowed.
If I show up with enough processing time and all the required paperwork, it seems like I can get it done. If someone knows for a fact this is not true, please let me know.
Thanks! |
Obviously the officers at the airport would have some discretion to grant re-entry permits as the immigration offices are not open 24/7 but emergencies can happen at any time so if you had a genuine emergency there'd be no problem. If you think they can't and/or won't refuse your request at the airport then I think you'd be in for a surprise but, no, I don't know for certain. Try it and see how you go! Extra points if you tell them "just do your job"! |
I am making a judgment call. I am a valid visa holder who is prepared to present all the proper paperwork to make a reasonable request for a re-entry permit. Not sure why people on this thread have the comic fantasy that I will shout and jump around to do it.
I am trying to determine if issuing re-entry permits are a normal and routine part of the work done at the airport immigration office. If they are, I will �demand� one (demand in the broader sense of the word � not a demeanor or attitude). If it is not, I will seek one else ware. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder why it is so hard to accept simply that it is not standard procedure to have a re-entry permit processed at the airport. Obviously the airport immigration office doesn't have the same facilities as the regional offices- they don't, for example, process visas there, and if every second foreigner in Japan were to decide that it was too inconvenient to go to the regional office and showed up at the airport expecting their re-entry permit to be processed there, they would be overwhelmed.
That is why they generally insist people get their re-entry permits prior to arriving at the airport- although it seems they will usually do it at the airport if necessary, they are not happy about it because they don't want people to make a habit out of it. That seems fairly simple, not to mention reasonable, to me. |
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BobbyBan
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| I don�t go anyplace asking for something for nothing. I would not go to the airport demanding something I am not entitled to. If the law requires me to get a re-entry permit before I arrive at the airport, that is what I will do. If it is a case of immigration bureaucrats giving people the stink eye for making them do their job, I will look at it a different way. I am traveling to the airport with another teacher who has a much earlier flight so I will have time to burn. Maybe someone with actual information and not just snarky banter can post, it would be what I was looking for. |
To be fair I think I was providing you with more than "snarky banter" but a concrete case in which someone was issued a permit only after a some very uncomfortable questioning. I don't know if you will or won't face the same thing but my advice is more as a warning. I may have shown a little frustration given that it is not me you have to convince when it comes to immigration law but immigration officials themselves.
Anyway, thanks to David W for the information. Passport, I would follow-up on the possibility that you won't have to go to immigration personally but can have someone else do so as this would probably be a less hazardous approach than telling immigration what they are obliged to do at the airport.
These are my final two yen.
Good luck.
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