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Teacher Student relationship
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Jetgirly



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not, by any means, treated like a professional by my employer (the school) or our clients (the companies that hired us) when I taught Business English for a chain school in Italy. However, we were definitely "pimped out" by our school (as I mentioned in my original post), in that we were strongly encouraged to go out with students because then they would recommend the school to their friends and other companies, we were advised against declining dates with students because it would be bad for business and we were chastised if we didn't get enough gifts from our students (also if the students didn't bring the secretaries Christmas gifts that were "sufficiently expensive"). It was fun (most of the time) when I was twenty-one and fresh out of university, but after a while I wanted to work in a more professional environment. I came back to Canada, got a second degree, moved into the public school system and now have to abide by literally HUNDREDS of laws, codes of conduct and administrative regulations. In fact, a lovely new law was just passed this morning!
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jdl



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah yes, the HRCs. Macleans just had a 'go round' with them. As a friend of mine use to say, "Sometimes we become so open minded that our brains fall out".

Reading Ezra Levant on this issue is entertaining.
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetgirly wrote:
I came back to Canada, got a second degree, moved into the public school system and now have to abide by literally HUNDREDS of laws, codes of conduct and administrative regulations. In fact, a lovely new law was just passed this morning!
Teachers in government indoctrination centers (public schools) have no business discussing anyone's sexual proclivities or discussing religion in the classroom. Just stick to the subject you're supposed to be teaching! You are an arm of the government: your opinions have no place in the classroom.

Frankly, I'm glad to see the government of Alberta stand up for the rights of parents for a change.
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdl wrote:
If we regard ourselves as a professional group perhaps a look at the codes of ethics and conduct of other professions could be enlightening. What do lawyers, doctors, health care professionals, therapists, counsellors et al have on the subject of 'client relationships' that may bring some perspective.
Agreed.

Quote:
Of course some would argue that we are neither a profession nor professional and therefore have no need for such codes. I guess it comes down to how we regard ourselves and acting accordingly.
Some might suggest that the only "professionals" are doctors, lawyers/judges and scientists - and that teachers aren't "professionals" because to become a teacher doesn't require the same level of education and training.
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Jetgirly



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chancellor wrote:
Jetgirly wrote:
I came back to Canada, got a second degree, moved into the public school system and now have to abide by literally HUNDREDS of laws, codes of conduct and administrative regulations. In fact, a lovely new law was just passed this morning!
Teachers in government indoctrination centers (public schools) have no business discussing anyone's sexual proclivities or discussing religion in the classroom. Just stick to the subject you're supposed to be teaching! You are an arm of the government: your opinions have no place in the classroom.

Frankly, I'm glad to see the government of Alberta stand up for the rights of parents for a change.


But I do stick to the subject I am supposed to teach- Health! I teach ESL Career and Life Management (provincially mandated) and we integrate the health curriculum into that class as well. The health portion is divided into three units (by the provincial government), one of which is HUMAN SEXUALITY. Our government-mandated curriculum says students must "examine a range of behaviours and choices regarding sexual expression"! That's a direct quote from the curriculum! Fulfilling my responsibilities as per the School Act (implementing the curriculum) will cause me to violate this new law. I'm perfectly happy to do as I'm told, but it's not fair to put me in a situation where doing my job causes me to break the law AND not doing my job causes me to break the law. Similarly, my students have been fundraising for schools in Afghanistan this year. They selected that cause themselves. This is connected to our Social Studies curriculum, which is ALL about the value of democracy, active citizenship and taking part on a local and global level. How can we talk about the Taliban without some direct instruction on Islam? The students see a picture of women in Afghanistan ten years ago and ask, "Ms. L, why are all the women covered by that black cloth?" I can't respond to that question without providing simple, direct information about Islam (obviously without generalizing!). Where does teaching students what people of a religion believe end, and perceived proselytising begin? I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, but I think (and our government-mandated curriculum supports) that learning about different belief systems is important. If I teach the students about Aztec gods (as per the curriculum), I'm in violation of this bill. If I leave out that part of the curriculum, I violate the School Act. Will I still be able to let my students stand up and share information about their culture with the class when a school day falls on Eid, or Rosh Hashanah, or Durdevdan?

However, all of that aside, I think this goes back to professionalism. Would I have cared about any of this in Italy, when I was making eleven euros an hour, not receiving benefits, not paid for classes that students cancelled at the last minute and working on a temporary contract that was renewed every year (because the school closed for August, nobody was ever considered permanent)? Probably not. However, I am treated like a professional in Canada- by students, parents, my employer and the community in general- and therefore I will act like one. I would have acted like one in Italy for $60 an hour, full medical and dental, access to resources, professional development opportunities and RESPECT. Wink
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetgirly wrote:
Chancellor wrote:
Jetgirly wrote:
I came back to Canada, got a second degree, moved into the public school system and now have to abide by literally HUNDREDS of laws, codes of conduct and administrative regulations. In fact, a lovely new law was just passed this morning!
Teachers in government indoctrination centers (public schools) have no business discussing anyone's sexual proclivities or discussing religion in the classroom. Just stick to the subject you're supposed to be teaching! You are an arm of the government: your opinions have no place in the classroom.

Frankly, I'm glad to see the government of Alberta stand up for the rights of parents for a change.


But I do stick to the subject I am supposed to teach- Health! I teach ESL Career and Life Management (provincially mandated) and we integrate the health curriculum into that class as well. The health portion is divided into three units (by the provincial government), one of which is HUMAN SEXUALITY. Our government-mandated curriculum says students must "examine a range of behaviours and choices regarding sexual expression"! That's a direct quote from the curriculum! Fulfilling my responsibilities as per the School Act (implementing the curriculum) will cause me to violate this new law. I'm perfectly happy to do as I'm told, but it's not fair to put me in a situation where doing my job causes me to break the law AND not doing my job causes me to break the law. Similarly, my students have been fundraising for schools in Afghanistan this year. They selected that cause themselves. This is connected to our Social Studies curriculum, which is ALL about the value of democracy, active citizenship and taking part on a local and global level. How can we talk about the Taliban without some direct instruction on Islam? The students see a picture of women in Afghanistan ten years ago and ask, "Ms. L, why are all the women covered by that black cloth?" I can't respond to that question without providing simple, direct information about Islam (obviously without generalizing!). Where does teaching students what people of a religion believe end, and perceived proselytising begin? I'm a pretty hardcore atheist, but I think (and our government-mandated curriculum supports) that learning about different belief systems is important. If I teach the students about Aztec gods (as per the curriculum), I'm in violation of this bill. If I leave out that part of the curriculum, I violate the School Act. Will I still be able to let my students stand up and share information about their culture with the class when a school day falls on Eid, or Rosh Hashanah, or Durdevdan?

However, all of that aside, I think this goes back to professionalism. Would I have cared about any of this in Italy, when I was making eleven euros an hour, not receiving benefits, not paid for classes that students cancelled at the last minute and working on a temporary contract that was renewed every year (because the school closed for August, nobody was ever considered permanent)? Probably not. However, I am treated like a professional in Canada- by students, parents, my employer and the community in general- and therefore I will act like one. I would have acted like one in Italy for $60 an hour, full medical and dental, access to resources, professional development opportunities and RESPECT. Wink
If you're an ESL teacher, why are you teaching health? What kind of system is your government running up there? And, no, teaching about sexual proclivities doesn't need to be included in teaching about human sexuality in general (as for that part in the curriculum about behaviors and choices, homosexuality is supposedly neither a behavior nor a choice; the gay rights activists insist they were born homosexual). As for teaching religion, the question about the woman in the black outfit is easily answered with one word: modesty. You really don't have to teach about any religion when talking about the Taliban (what the Taliban has to do with teaching children how to speak English, I don't know). Besides, what the new law actually does is affirm the right for parents to pull their children from classrooms in which teachers discuss sexual orientation, sexuality, or religion. So, you won't be violating the new law if parents are pulling their children out of your classroom - unless you're one of those teachers that insist on forcing their opinions on students regardless of what their parents want and you don't inform the parents ahead of time that you're going to be talking about such controversial subjects.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Chancellor,

" . . . homosexuality is supposedly neither a behavior nor a choice; the gay rights activists insist they were born homosexual)"
I can see how that would make it not a choice, but how would it make it not a behavior?

Regards,
John
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Jetgirly



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chancellor wrote:
If you're an ESL teacher, why are you teaching health? What kind of system is your government running up there?


Our school has an unusually high number of very recent immigrants (mostly refugees), including a large number with no literacy skills. We run ESL versions of core classes to accommodate the needs of students in their late teens who haven't held a pencil before and can't read English or their native language. I've also taught ESL Language Arts, ESL Computers and ESL Science. We even run ESL Auto Mechanics! You tell me what kind of system that is.
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jdl



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetgirly,

Do you think Bill 44 will stand a challenge from ATA?

The bill does not prohibit the teaching of the curriculum. It allows students to absent themselves with parental permission from such teachings. Relgion and sexuality incidentally touched upon are exempt.....talk about an area for litigation. The classrooms affected may include Health, Physical Ed, Physics, Biology, Senior Social Studies, Science........

Any predictions or insights into the ATA reaction? Alberta Teachers Association is one of a very few Teachers Organizations that reserves the right to strike. Is this such an issue?
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jdl



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chancellor,

Grab a copy of any of the Provincial ELA and ESL curriculum guides to better understand how ESL instruction is understood and implemented in the Public Schools. Of course the Curriculum will vary from province to province since education is a provincial/state matter, but in western Canada the Curricula have been integrated through the Western Canada Protocols. The curricula are quite enlightened and enlightening. The ELA and ESL curricula are top notch. I have found many esl teachers internationally were very excited to be put in contact with these curricula since it seems to be an area in which TEFL is in stress.
The implementation on the other hand can be another matter all together since resources and supports aka budget are often lacking. Nothing new there is there?
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Jetgirly



Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 741

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The bill does not prohibit the teaching of the curriculum. It allows students to absent themselves with parental permission from such teachings. Relgion and sexuality incidentally touched upon are exempt.....talk about an area for litigation. The classrooms affected may include Health, Physical Ed, Physics, Biology, Senior Social Studies, Science........


The issue for me is the perceived difference between incidentally touching on a subject and teaching it. Unless there is a watchdog in every classroom, it becomes Mrs. Jones' word against Little Bobby's word. Kids become fixated on small details, and what I might think is briefly touching on something in response to a student's question could be interpreted totally differently by a student, whose parents will then receive a third version of events when that student gets home. Add in the langauge barrier in an ESL Health or ESL Science class (as well as the students' homes), and you've got a total, complete mess. I had a parent meeting a few days ago with a parent whose child is TENTATIVELY scheduled to be in my class next year. Anything could happen this summer- with staffing changes I could be forced to go to a different school entirely! She was on my case about the other students in the class, who would be in the class, who her child couldn't sit with, what strategies I use to teach, what technology would be in the classroom, etc. At the end of the meeting she said, "You're just going to have to get used to this because I'm just that kind of parent. I want to know everything that is happening in the classroom all the time, I'm always dropping into the school and into class, and I need to have a say in my child's education." I think that when it gets to the point where a parent needs that much control, homeschooling is a better option. Similarly, I think that if a parent objects to part of the government-mandated curriculum they should look into homeschooling or private schools (which are required to teach the curriculum, but don't always do so). Students come to school with classmates who represent a spectrum of religious views, and there are even openly homosexual students in our class (gasp!)- my strong personal belief is that students need to be taught the skills to thrive in our diverse world. However, my stronger personal belief is that I like having a job and money so of course I'll adhere to each and every law.

We haven't received any directive from the ATA. I received an unofficial memo from my union rep today saying that we should "walk on eggshells" in class until we receive an official directive. In today's economy I don't think teachers will strike, as many are now the sole earners in their house. It's a great time to ask workers to do unreasonable things!
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santi84



Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetgirly wrote:
Chancellor wrote:
If you're an ESL teacher, why are you teaching health? What kind of system is your government running up there?


Our school has an unusually high number of very recent immigrants (mostly refugees), including a large number with no literacy skills. We run ESL versions of core classes to accommodate the needs of students in their late teens who haven't held a pencil before and can't read English or their native language. I've also taught ESL Language Arts, ESL Computers and ESL Science. We even run ESL Auto Mechanics! You tell me what kind of system that is.


ELSA/LINC and other ESL programs here teach English through life skills and information topics. My final practicum evaluation was teaching the concepts of domestic violence and the specific laws in Canada that relate to it. Few of my (adult) students were unaware that it is illegal in Canada for your husband to have sex with you without your consent. Very touchy topic, indeed.
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johnslat



Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear jetgirly,
Ah, one of those. They've even been given a name: "helicopter parents"

"Helicopter parent is a colloquial, early 21st-century term for a parent who pays extremely close attention to his or her child's or children's experiences and problems, particularly at educational institutions. These parents rush to prevent any harm or failure from befalling them and will not let them learn from their own mistakes, sometimes even contrary to the children's wishes. They are so named because, like helicopters, they hover closely overhead, rarely out of reach, whether their children need them or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent

Helicopter parent: A nosy grown-up who's always hovering around. Quick to offer a teacher unwanted help.

In other words, an overprotective control freak (hover, hover.)

Regards,
John
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jdl



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 632
Location: cyberspace

PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetgirly,

Yes 'helicpter parent" ...great term John! As a principal I had a few in my schools and they did require a great deal of patience, time and endurance! I usually tried to run interference for my teachers and had some very frank chats with the parents about hindering student progress and development through over monitoring. For some it worked, for others, the school was one of the few places where they actually had a voice and they were taking full advantage. In the cases where a parent could just not be satisfied I asked them what they would have us do. Once that was articulated I referred them to an agency or personnel outside the school who could help them, for often what they wanted was societal or policy in nature and really in a realm outside the school. That worked sometimes. Other times I just put them to work as a volunteer. That also worked from time to time in providing the parent a 'larger picture'

Having said all that, of the thousands of families I have had in my schools perhaps 5 have been of the helicopter variety...it just felt like a hundred.

I know it is an easy answer to say 'enlist her help' ... but it seems to be what works best. Maybe your principal could arrange to have this student with a teacher who is already familiar with the family to facilitate the child's continued growth without the disruption of having to 'induct' a new teacher??? Wink

I await the first HRC case involving a teacher who 'infringes' upon a child's rights vis a vis religion, sexual orientation etc. through the conscientious execution of his/her teaching duties. Hope the ATA is up for it and can defend the teachers adequately.
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Chancellor



Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)

PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetgirly wrote:
Chancellor wrote:
If you're an ESL teacher, why are you teaching health? What kind of system is your government running up there?


Our school has an unusually high number of very recent immigrants (mostly refugees), including a large number with no literacy skills. We run ESL versions of core classes to accommodate the needs of students in their late teens who haven't held a pencil before and can't read English or their native language. I've also taught ESL Language Arts, ESL Computers and ESL Science. We even run ESL Auto Mechanics!
Sounds more like having an entirely separate school in the same building.

Quote:
You tell me what kind of system that is.
A strange one. Very Happy
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