Job Discussion Forums

johnslat · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject:

Dear Chancellor,

"Behavior is choice; sexual/romantic attraction is not."

That may not be as dogmatic as your statement would suggest:

"When we talk about "choice" in sexual orientation, we have to distinguish between a person's freely chosen, deeply abiding, existential sense of "who I am," and a person's choosing to submit to social pressure in order to survive. Over the centuries, many gay men and lesbians and bisexuals were coerced into functioning as heterosexuals, and they fooled everybody -- church, family, friends, children, perhaps even themselves. If homosexuality has a genetic basis, then it would seem that these people passed so well because they discovered the power of changing a leopard's spots.

People can be coerced in the opposite direction as well. Extremes of sexual re-conditioning can be seen in American men who go to prison young and spend 10 or 20 years there. When they get out, many are what the activist organization Stop Prison Rape calls "functioning bisexuals." For years, they have conformed to the sex system in men's jails and prisons, which includes "married" cellmates, gang rape of new young inmates, and systematic brutalization of gay inmates. These men were straight when they were first sentenced, but in prison many reach the point where they like sex with men. The film "American Me" gives us a graphic portrait of this type of man.

Choice is a profoundly human thing that both the straight and gay communities need to acknowledge and dignity in a more realistic way. Gay people shouldn't throw "choice" away just because the radical right have made it one of their buzzwords.

Come to think of it, choice is a sword that cuts both ways. If gay people have the right to choose being straight, then straight people have the right to choose being gay. And maybe some straight people will do just that."

http://www.whosoever.org/v2Issue2/warren.html

For some, at least, the jury would seem to be still out on whether "sexual/romantic attraction" is a choice or not.

Regards,
John

Chancellor · Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject:

jdl · Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 632 Location: cyberspace

Chancellor,
You make good observations and analyses which represent a particular point of view. No argument in the logic. This logic seems to have found its way in to our curricula for the most part.

Canadians tend not to be litigious in general but recent Human Rights Challenges have led to windfall settlements and encouraged what some might consider 'nuisance suits for profit'. These Human Rights Tribunals operate outside/beside the legal code and have become a // legal structure. My concern was expressed over a teacher who in passing or in normal circumstances as identified in the curriculum uses the words "God', "sex", "gender" etc and is brought before a 'tribunal'. Teachers are very well protected within the legal system but how well we fare in the system of 'Human Rights Tribunals' has yet to be tested to my knowledge.

Oh for the days of the 'little red school house' when student/teacher relations was one of 'loco parentis' and taken seriously by all.

The whole area of Human Rights Tribunals is a very sensitive issue here right now. The issues of separation of school/state/church and bedroom seem to have been worked out over time without any famous trials as evidenced just south of us....but the Human Rights Tribunals and challenges to them may put us in jurisprudence history yet.

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

Interesting to se the label helicopter parents used. In Japan they often refer to these parents as 'monester parents', as some have requested that a school change its holiday schedule to accomodate the family vacations, and other parents have demanded that the school teach or not teach certain subjects that they love or abhor.

Here in Japan, PTAs getting more teeth has led to this unfortunate overzealous interest, as well as some internationl schools desiring 'large donations' from celebrities, who later then want serious control over the school curriculum and sometimes even screening for acceptance of new students into the school (not a good family background, look too dark, etc..).

fladude · Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 432

I'm going to pass on the gay choice sub topic which has sprung up here... lol.

But I do want to comment on the original topic. I find it repulsive when a teacher goes out with a much younger student. To me that's just immoral. The worst offenders being, of course, the teachers who date junior high kids or what not. Even students in their early 20's.... undergrads for example, tend to be too impressionable and easily influenced for the relationship with a teacher to be proper.

That said... I think at some point it's ridiculous to bar relationships under most circumstances. If two people are in their late 20's or older (thirties / forties /fifties / etc....) then to me it's their business. The fact that one person taught a class and the other didn't shouldn't have an effect.

Now it's different in a class where people are being actively and competitively graded. In law school, for example, classes use a bell curve, which results in certain grade distribution. A certain portion of the class will get C's, a certain portion B's and a certain small portion A's. And those grades can have a real impact on people's scholarships and future employment. In that situation dating is obviously inappropriate because it fosters favoritism and gives some students an unfair edge.

In a situation like ESL though... where most classes are either not taught for a grade, graded pass / fail, or taught without a Bell Curve (where everyone can get an A for example) then I don't have a problem with two older people dating (as long as it isn't a 40 year old man dating an 18 year old freshman for example). It's ridiculous to say that two 35 year old people, for example, can't date just because one is an ESL teacher under this situation.

It all boils down to ethics. We can define ethical reasons why an adult shouldn't date a minor. We can define ethical reasons why a 40 year old shouldn't impose on an impressionable 18 year old. We can define why a teacher shouldn't date a student in a class where the grades are competitive. But logically we can't really define a rational for two older people to date, even where one of them is a teacher, in a situation where the class being taught is not graded competitively.

To me, a complete bar on student teacher relationships then is without merit and is simply prudish. There clearly are situations where there is no ethical bar to a teacher dating a student. Those situations though have to be judged individually and should never occur where the teacher is in a position of power over the student.

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

I agree, having relations with students that we give grades to is not a good idea. It's a power relationship, and a very unequal one at that.

The same goes for students that we might be advising in the future, which might include students in our department, even though we don't currently teach them.

booty · Joined: 22 Aug 2004 Posts: 94

This is a quote from a young 19-year-old Spanish student who was being taught by a 40 something in at her home in Spain. She repeatedly flirted with him week after week. He resisted for a long time, but she contined to flirt with him, getting clser and closer. One day, she showed him a clip of a soap-opera in English and specifically got to a point in the soap where a couple were kissing.
The following week, he asked �Do you want me to kiss you?�She said NO!! He thne said �K, let�s carry on with the class. That week, she had grassed him up to her parents who told the academy. Embarassed

You have to be careful when students get so close to you. It apparently works both ways

jdl · Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 632 Location: cyberspace

" grassed him up" ?

Justin Trullinger · Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject:

fladude · Joined: 02 Feb 2009 Posts: 432

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

fladude posted

Jetgirly · Joined: 17 Jul 2004 Posts: 741

When I was dating students, I was a twenty-one year old girl going out with male students in their late twenties and thirties. I never made the first move. There is just no realm of possibility in which I could have been taking advantage of my students. If anything, the students had power over me in that I worked for a private chain school where keeping students happy and getting good evaluations is all that keeps you employed. That specific dynamic seems to be left out of a lot of conversations about student-teacher relationships.