|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
wayne432
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 255
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| starteacher wrote: |
Is it okay to use the words black folks and white folks but incorrect to use yellow folks ?
|
The List
white = almost always ok
Caucasian = almost always ok
black = some people get offended, but usually ok
African-American = some people get offended, but usually ok
yellow = not so common, since people usually get offended
oriental = old terminology, people may get offended
Asian = almost always ok
And a bunch more. Sometimes you have to tell older students that what they are saying was offensive to many people. They were calling a black person a negro, which is generally only accepted coming from a black person (just one of those things).
| starteacher wrote: |
| When someone says "We Americans do ....." or "We British...", what does that refer to ? Are British people "Europeans" ? |
We Americans = Americans (including speaker and maybe other people in the conversation) generally... (of course, this is still from the speaker's point of view)
| starteacher wrote: |
| Discussions of race and nationalities (and even religion) are very sensitive topics, and for that very matter they should be discussed more in society in general. It is not what is being said, it is the intent behind the words. The world is getting smaller. |
Might be another good thing to tell students. 3 topics that you shouldn't bring to any dinner, etc are race, religion, and sexuality... because it could cause tempers and stupidity to flare up. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
starteacher,
I think you missed the point. You made a striking statement about all caucasian countries having a certain mindset.
Just because you think a certain way or think the use of a certain word is okay, doesn't mean we will all agree with you.
I was simply giving examples of how your way of thinking/speaking would be totally unacceptable HERE IN THE UK despite being "a majority caucasian country".
As to your remarks about Britains got Talent... if that was a UK broadcast I highly doubt it and if you want to know why, the answer is: Big Brother! Since all the issues faced by BB and Channel 4, TV watchdogs like Ofcom have become heavy handed in dealing with anything that could be considered offensive or racist. (BB only just got cleared of its latest accusations about a week ago due to Coolio's attitude and behaviour last series)
"Yellow" is most certainly offensive for us and as to "red" or "brown", I'm not even too sure what they are and most certainly have never heard them on TV or in real life.
BTW, if you believe that the Japanese are adaptable just because a few students said they were not shocked... I suggest you think again. They are just as suseptable to culture shock if not more so than the people of many other countries. Many of the teachers at my school have been to the UK and I've heard some interesting things. My favorite so far I heard from a male teacher today: He was shocked when he bought a regular newspaper off the bottom self in a newsagent, sat on a crowded train, turned to the 2nd page and was confronted by the 'page 3 girl'. He was so embarrassed and certain that everone would think him perverted that he got off at the next stop and had to wait ages for the next train.
I also had the pleasure of reading a thesis called, 'Should Japan make English its 2nd official language?', where the student explains that he was shocked by how wrong western countries get aspects of Japanese culture (he even worked in the Californian roll not being real sushi  ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steki47
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1029
Location: BFE Inaka
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| starteacher wrote: |
| I think Japanese people (and possibly the entire non Caucasian world) are better at adapting to other countries than Caucasions. |
Really? On what basis do you make that statement? Not attacking you, just curious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Mod - Please delete this post. Somehow the PC double posted. Thanks.
Last edited by starteacher on Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Just because you think a certain way or think the use of a certain word is okay, doesn't mean we will all agree with you. |
You are right. We are all unique. We are so unique that we, brothers (sisters) of this world, are able to even kill one another.
It is because we have so many misunderstandings, whether of one's own or another's is that we need a lot of tolerance when being with different types of people, even in one's own native country let alone living in another foreign land.
Of course, you will find the snippets of cultural differences, or rather experiences, but that is still simply normal reaction since ways of life are just different.
I have had some students who went on home stays at the same time and they stayed with an Australian families....... one with a "typical" Sydney family (sorry for the stereotype but Neighbours-like), another went and had Srilankan curry for dinner everyday because that family was originally from Sri Lanka but are about 3 generations in Oz, and another was with a mixed race couple. So who had the best insights. They all did. I've had University students who went to the hotels and left the bath tap running because they thought the bathroom was like that in Japan and water overflowing did not matter. But the hotel bill did. There are other stories.
And that is why I hardly ever try to reach "culture" with students. I tend to give a lecture on telling students that they need to simply love what they see and where they go, to always be forgiving for the misunderstandings, to never fear which will not be there if the intentions are pure, and to always help in whatever is in their heart. Because the true learning of any "culture" is so complex, it is really an exploration, rather than a solution.
And thus I don't expect others to agree with me, because I don't look for it as I'd be living under the false expectations of others. I think the best way for travellers is to find these differences and take what they can from them.
I do sometimes talk to company classes about "culture" but I think most people have common sense in any situation. You can teach thyem how to shake hands and kiss on the cheeks. There are of course repulsive and vulgar people around, but in that case why are you still there in such company ? To shake that guy's hand and give a hug and kiss ?
| Quote: |
| 3 topics that you shouldn't bring to any dinner, etc are race, religion, and sexuality... because it could cause tempers and stupidity to flare up. |
I sometimes have these classes, though usually adult lessons or intermediate level. Never underestimate the wisdom and intelligence of your students. A teacher is also simply another learner. Sometimes the classes work, sometimes not, but overall I found those who discussed these issues, even with difficulty, comeback later with much gratitude.
| Quote: |
| I think you missed the point. You made a striking statement about all caucasian countries having a certain mindset. |
Maybe. But in this thread/forum we are able to make statements about what is right for the Japanese mindset ?
Lowering the level of sensitivity is a good start, but hey, you cannot change others, you can only change yourself.
We could go on debating and discussing these issues, it is so open-ended. Anyway, thanks for the replies, I wasn't expecting so much but I am glad since I've picked up some good points and some points which I have not yet decided to agree on, but maybe for a later time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| steki47 wrote: |
| starteacher wrote: |
I think Japanese people (and possibly the entire non Caucasian world) are better at adapting to other countries than Caucasions.
Really? On what basis do you make that statement? Not attacking you, just curious. |
|
Nice q. Just an opinion, no need to fret attack  I am sure every member on this forum is a good decent person and is doing their very best in life.
I have many Japanese friends in Japan as well as back home. Maybe because of their way they are educated, they are much more "obedient", are not so good discussions and debates as this is less in their upbringing. Sometimes this is a good thing, They are less passive and maybe even less emotional in outbursts. Also maybe in Japanese society, SILENCE is seen as a virtue, so they shut up rather than speak out. There are exceptions but in general.
Again as a generality, the current world is quite "american" as protrayed by much media, movies, news, business, language, pop stats, Big Macs, Nikes, etc. Yes, communism almost defeated and space exploration. And before that it was the British Colonies, giving the legal systems, tax systems, education systems, Europe with banking systems and insurance systems, nuclear phsysics, and the Industrial Revolution (nutshell in no particular order or preference). So in recent history, the driving force in the world has been quite "caucasian", and now English Language is the resultant global communication language. So many non caucasian countries have experienced these caucasian cultures into their societies, and have copied or adapted them into their own cultures. In Japan, you can get an obento (lunch box) that has noodle, rice, hamburger, potato salad, tomato sphagetti, fish roll, pickles, fried chicken, and a sour plum. Sometimes a frankfurter sausage too.
PS - Regarding history I am no expert, just an observer. If anyone has more accuracy with modern histroy, please feel free to correct. I'm only giving a bullet nutshell. Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zzonkmiles
Joined: 05 Apr 2003
Posts: 309
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What about the lack of 24-hour conbinis? The closest things to conbinis (at least in the US) are gas stations and some drugstores (CVS, Walgreens). So shopping may be a hassle.
Another issue is staring. While it may be common in Japan, it's considered rude in other countries.
Customer service outside of Japan may leave a lot to be desired. Hopefully Japanese tourists won't be so shocked by this.
Panhandlers can be aggressive outside of Japan.
In Japan, the philosophy is "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down." In the West, the philosophy is "the squeaky wheel gets the oil." That may take some getting used to in terms of culture shock.
One thing that has always amused me is how many Japanese use the word "gaijin" when they are ABROAD. Realizing that the Japanese become the gaijin when they leave Japan seems to be difficult for them to grasp. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
Another issue is staring. While it may be common in Japan, it's considered rude in other countries.
Panhandlers can be aggressive outside of Japan.
|
Let's not make the mistake of dividing the world into "Japan" and "gaikoku"- just about everything people have said on this thread may happen in some, but certainly not all countries outside Japan.
If you think staring is bad in Japan, take a trip to China or India and it is likely that after that experience you will never be bothered by the staring here again, it is so mild in comparison.
In my own country I have never come across a panhandler, so again, panhandling may be a problem in [i]some[i/] countries- encountering panhandling was just as much of a culture shock to me as it would be to any Japanese. Incidentally a few weeks ago I was in Ueno and was asked by a (probably homeless) man if I would give him money to buy beer- so a panhandler, right here in Tokyo. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
startteacher posted
| Quote: |
| And that is why I hardly ever try to reach "culture" with students. I tend to give a lecture on telling students that they need to simply love what they see and where they go, to always be forgiving for the misunderstandings, to never fear which will not be there if the intentions are pure, and to always help in whatever is in their heart. Because the true learning of any "culture" is so complex, it is really an exploration, rather than a solution. |
Oh my, this smacks a bit too much of being overly verbose. I only wish it was that simple. Certainly using your common sense helps, but what happens when you find it's not so common? When people are suddenly attacking you, and you haven't the slighest clue why?
| Quote: |
| And thus I don't expect others to agree with me, because I don't look for it as I'd be living under the false expectations of others. I think the best way for travellers is to find these differences and take what they can from them. |
This is true to some extent. Everyone has a different experience of a place, and even what people are willing to tolerate will be wildly different. Some people who tell me how wonderful a country is when they only stay at 5 star hotels comes to mind, as well as people who think it's normal to want to put up with being hassled on a regular basis. Yes, it's part of the experience, but not one I necessarily want 24/7 (Bali comes to mind when I think on this one).
Zzonkmiles posted
| Quote: |
| What about the lack of 24-hour conbinis? The closest things to conbinis (at least in the US) are gas stations and some drugstores (CVS, Walgreens). So shopping may be a hassle. |
Zzonk, I have to smile on seeing this one. Certainly out of the cities, yes, some convenience stores are not very numerous, just like I didn't see any in Naruto (many things were closed after 8 pm). I just had a 24 hour supermarket open near me in Tokyo 3 years ago. I was going to one in the 1970s in the US (and this was in a town, not a major metro area like Tokyo). 24 hours gyms? Just in the last 7 years or so in Japan. The US has had them for quite some time before in major cities. 24 hour ATMs? I was using one in the US in the late 70s. In Japan they started them after I arrived here (1997), with CitiBank leading the way.
Aspara posted
| Quote: |
| In my own country I have never come across a panhandler, so again, panhandling may be a problem in [i]some[i/] countries- encountering panhandling was just as much of a culture shock to me as it would be to any Japanese. Incidentally a few weeks ago I was in Ueno and was asked by a (probably homeless) man if I would give him money to buy beer- so a panhandler, right here in Tokyo. |
My wife and I really enjoyed the scenery in NZ, but we did run into a few panhandlers there, notably in Christ Church, Queenstown, and in Auckland. Not hordes, I'm talking about 2-3 in each location, perhaps 5 toal in Auckland. Maybe the tourist sign I had stamped on my forehead brought them out .
And yes, I have also run into panhandlers in Japan, mostly in bigger cities, and certainly plenty of homeless, some forage through the trash on my street every week    . But since they are very neat about it, retying the bags after doing so and generally stay downwind from me , I can't complain too much about them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wow, for some reason you were really targeted. Admittedly I haven't spent more than 10 days or so at a time in New Zealand for about the last 8 years, and the last time was 2.5 years ago, but I do go to downtown Auckland every time I go home and my family lives in Auckland- I'm sure my father in particular would have mentioned it if panhandlers had been bothering him. Maybe it is a local/tourist thing, although I'm not sure how they can tell. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Apsara wrote: |
| Wow, for some reason you were really targeted. Admittedly I haven't spent more than 10 days or so at a time in New Zealand for about the last 8 years, and the last time was 2.5 years ago, but I do go to downtown Auckland every time I go home and my family lives in Auckland- I'm sure my father in particular would have mentioned it if panhandlers had been bothering him. Maybe it is a local/tourist thing, although I'm not sure how they can tell. |
It can be quite easy to pick out the non-locals in a street by watching for subtle diferrences in behaviour. Even in a small city like Canterbury that has a huge population of internatioal students you can still spot who is a local and who is just visiting, or who is an international student and who is a regular tourist (unless it is the start of their first year abroad). Tourist vs student is super easy since tourists normally have the tell-tell camera and map and they are normally headed for the tourist attractions.
With locals vs visitors you can still tell. Even if the visitor isn't coming for the first time, they tend to be more aware of their surroundings than a local would be. They might actually look at the street names or pause briefly to be sure the road they are going to turn onto is the right one. If they ask directions to a place that would be common knowledge to a local, that's a dead give away.
Beggars will spend a lot of time watching people, looking for a good target, so they'll be especially good at picking the people who are not from around here, which is probably why you are not targetted but gaijinalways was. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
parrothead
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 342
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| To contribute to the OPs original question, in America I would suggest that the lack of frequent public transportation in small/medium size cities could be frustrating to a Japanese. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
-
Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Shiori...
...instead of writing about things that you found a shock, you've just listed a load of things you think the Japanese should change (because if your home country does it different then they are obviously doing it wrong here )
1. If you don't like the skirts here, don't visit any UK uni city at night. At least they remember to wear proper underwear with their tiny skirts here.
2. You'd find that many Europeans also have a strange ideas on what is private info and what is not.
3. We only apply that if you are going to someone's house for a sit down dinner.
This is not your home country. Things are different. You will find some of the differences shocking. You have to learn to either accept or simply tolerate these differences. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be amused if visitors came to your country and started imposing their culture on you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 11:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| seklarwia wrote: |
| At least they remember to wear proper underwear with their tiny skirts here. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
