Job Discussion Forums

[seven seas]

So it looks like we all agree, that the average DELTA beats the average MA, as far as teachign goes.


The admin at all the universities roudn here disagree, for whatever reason.

Jobseeker- without an MA, you will struggle.

[spicegirl]

This is the old DELTA vs MA debate again ... the fact is that in the UK, an MA isn't a teaching qualification, whereas a DELTA is. I think it must be different in the USA, otherwise, how would those who've done a Masters there be qualified to teach?

Back in the late 70s, when I'd just done my RSA Preparatory Certificate (as the CELTA was then known), I was teaching highly advanced Spanish students of English, some of whom were English teachers themselves - it was baptism by fire. Later, in the early 80s, when I did the RSA Diploma (now DELTA), the pass rate was around 30%. I've never known anyone who didn't pass their MA, in the UK.

Certainly, long before I did my MA, I was teaching academic English, as well as general English at all levels from absolute beginners to post-Proficiency. My RSA Diploma prepared me to teach at all levels, and those who've done the course will know that the practical exam includes both internal and external assessment of one's teaching at both lower and higher levels. It's probably the most intensive and rewarding course that I've ever done. The written assignments and theory exams were just as demanding as the work that I did on my MA. The difference was that with the MA I had to do a 25.000 word dissertation. My MA stated that it was for experienced classroom teachers who wanted to move into management or research areas.

The DELTA course also includes teaching theory, as well as practical aspects. When I did my MA, it was expected that I already knew basic teaching theory, and had had a wide range of teaching experience.

In order to teach on a pre-sessional course, almost all British universities require you to have a DELTA (RSA Dipoma) or Trinity Diploma. If you have an MA but no Diploma, then they'll only hire you in exceptional circumstances, or if they're desperate.

I think the name 'Diploma' must somehow be misleading, as there are some who see it as somehow inferior to an MA, while the fact is that they are (or certainly used to be) both post-graduate courses.

The bottom line is, though, that in the UAE, whatever the rights or wrongs, and whatever the pros and cons, the government universities and colleges want you to have that MA after your name. We can't argue with that.

[wintermute2]

speaking from a USA perspective, a Masters still does not allow you to teach K-12...do not know about post-secondary, but for K-12 you need a certification for the area (pre-K-3; K-9; 6-8; 9-12)...it will take 4 years to get it if you are starting fresh...MA helps on the salary schedule, and with some districts that want it...I am along in the hiring process for Abu Dhabi because of the MA...just my 2 dihrams

[veiledsentiments]

Wintermute has it right. In the US, to teach one has to have certification from the state in which you received your first degree (some unis call it a BA and some a BSc... same thing whatever the name oddly). So teaching requires a 4 year degree with a degree in either primary or secondary education. If it is secondary, then you can have majors and minors in various fields. (these days it is rare to teach with a minor, but it was common before the 1950's and in smaller towns) I double majored in English and Business. I had to take the various methodology courses for both majors and educational psychology courses of the day and then you are assigned to a teacher in the local schools and teach under her (usually a her back then) for a six week grading period.

To teach ESL, you need an added ESL certification which normally requires additional methodolgy course. And this is true even if you have an MA in ESL or Applied Linguistics and 10 years of teaching it overseas. An MA in anything doesn't qualify you to teach in the public schools. You need the right first degree.

This is for a public school - with slight variation by state. Education is not centralized... controlled locally, not federally. Private schools can set many of their own requirements. Colleges and Universities normally require an MA these days to teach ESL just because it is so competitive - too many teachers chasing too few jobs.

JohnKG... I would be very surprised if I had taught with someone who had a DELTA because I found that people were very vocal about such things. When I got to the Gulf I hadn't heard of the CELTA, and many of the Brits were all huffy about my not being appropriately impressed by their having it. No one was ever shy about their credentials and what they had. The credentials debate has always been a given in every faculty room. But, I suppose that there could have been secret DELTA holders lurking around.

VS

[johnkg]

[johnkg]

[Zoot]

You're right jkg - there're plenty of people with a Masters, but are they teachers? NO! They may have undergraduate and Masters, but they're not teachers even if they have a Masters in education. The CELTA and the DELTA are more hands-on, short-term courses unlike the PGCE, Dip. Ed., B.Ed, which are all longer-term qualifications and therefore produce actual teachers who can qualify for a registration in their home state.

[BrownSauce]

The CELTA is a 4-week course that teaches you how to be an effective deliverer of published EFL/ESL course materials - and little else. A Masters is usually almost entirely theoretical, and is often based around second language acquisition, discourse analysis, phonetics, etc etc. They are as different as chalk and cheese, in my opinion, and those 'CELTA-belters' who attempt to look down on their better-qualified colleagues are guilty of inverted snobbery (something that comes quite naturally to the Brits, by the way)

A Diploma, or DELTA, is somewhere in the middle, but still veering towards the practical rather than theoretical, I would say. In an ideal world all teachers would have both, I guess - the practical and the theoretical.

But let's look at things this way, if we want to have an argument about which is the better approach. How would you feel if you were treated by a 'doctor' who only had a First Aid certificate? Yes, that's the CELTA teacher - a 'nurse' in medical terms, I suppose, who is much better suited to the hands-on approach, rather than making decisions, which is the job of the doctor, who has had suitable extensive education and training.

The problem is that, in the UAE they want 'nurses' with a doctor's qualifications. Even worse, some of these 'nurses' think they're better than the doctors!

[Pikgitina]

[johnkg]

[Splitting Hairs]

Brown Sauce ( are you HP?)
The problem is that, in the UAE they want 'nurses' with a doctor's qualifications. Even worse, some of these 'nurses' think they're better than the doctors!

If you have a baby - you want a doctor as far away as possible as he has the theory but hasn't got a clue how to deliver or interact with the mother hence you need a Midwife - someone who knows the theory, has learnt how to apply and is is preffered by all except the doctor who is only needed in emergencies - thank god some you have a diploma. MA and CELTA combined.

[veiledsentiments]

You people are reminding me of why I avoided hanging out in the faculty rooms. This topic has been beat to death since the 80's and nothing has changed. The Brits on one side... the Americans on the other... and both sides have their points. The fact is that I know fantastic teachers who never took an education methodology course and just had an MA... and I knew crappy teachers who had their CELTA. Not to mention that I know both good and bad teachers who have both of those pieces of paper.

Just knowing theory doesn't make you a good teacher... and just knowing how to mechanically slog through Headway with the right code words doesn't make you a good teacher.

Teaching is an art not a science...

VS

[johnkg]

[veiledsentiments]

I wouldn't want to disappoint you john... you know you'd miss me in spite of yourself.

VS

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

People, people, PEOPLE! Can't we all just get along?!?

NCTBA