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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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 Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:02 am Post subject: |
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someone wrote:
If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? If I was working at such a place I'd have no problem renegotiating because I know I have nothing to lose as I wouldnt be staying at the place past the first contract
1.8-2.3 million depending on experience...again, who'd want to work at a place with that attitude anyway?.
a reply:
I AM working at a place that refused and refuses to renegotiate! And I choose to stay here coz the school's name looks good on a CV, the benefits are ok/good, the conditions are ok, and the majority of the students are good. I have a BA so they pay me a certain amount. If I had a Masters they'd pay me a bit more or a Phd another (little) bit more. But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? And why is it so hard to understand that I put other considerations above immediate monetary gain??? |
first of all, in china, there are employers that've troubles understanding foreign credentials or fts previous experiences. then, the fact is that many fts end up doing the same gigs regardless their qualifications. so, a phd holder might easily end up doing the same "monkey show" as the BA one or a high school dropout. at times, ironically  , the high school dropouts do a better "classroom show" and that with all due respect to the fine graduates of the prestigious educational institutions.
now, why is it hard to understand? schools/language centers use routinely different salary offers when recruiting. respectfully to all on, employers take it as if they are buying a new shirt. in china, it's common to negotiate prices in shops and that kinda attitude/mentality carries over to the business practices as well. they put a clause in your contracts not to disclose your salary to others and so you are in catch 22 right there...if you want to find out what your coworkers salaries are 
i've worked with a guy who's claimed he had 6 degrees. he never showed/handled himself in such a way either in classrooms or in the office. i've worked with a highschool dropout who was highly popular amongst the students and that also delighted the employer...the employer who had no idea how academicly poor the classes were. i've worked for an employer that decided to raise a salary offer for a new ft and that 'casue there were simply no other fts to take that job. too bad that i worked there for more than 2 years when the hihger paid newbie came.
the differences in fts salaries come with the market (just like the food market). if the employer cannot find an ft for, say 6,000 monthly at a given time, he/she will raise the offer to, say 6,500 regardless the feelings of his/her current employees (fts). that all, knowing that there's a clause in the contractual agreement that if you disclose your salary to a third party, you may be dismissed...would hurt if you were in the 10 month of your contract..missing on the end of contract bonuses as well as on any further chances to work in the same town..see the new regulations
cheers and beers to all the secrets we keep from our wives, but salary at work  |
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raven15
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 20
Location: varies
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Responding to OP (because I don't come here often), I'd negotiate before I came. Get as much as you can now. At my university there was a guy from a community college in the US who came to the university on some sort of agreement between the two schools. When he got here he discovered two other teachers made 50% more than him, even though he had a M.S. and many years experience in the "sister college." He was irritated, but they refused to give him more pay (and he refused to teach extra classes as a result, when I arrived my students had not had oral English the last semester). The same school didn't pay for my plane ticket here. Basically, if they smell fresh blood they try to take advantage in every way possible, so negotiate hard is my advice. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| knowing that there's a clause in the contractual agreement that if you disclose your salary to a third party, you may be dismissed... |
this well may be in your contract.. but I don�t recall seeing it in a SAFEA.. and I know it has never been incl. in any contract I have signed in 9 years....I for sure think I would remember it under dismissal
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You and Eva really do seem to be in your own little world where you're the King and Queen of the castle dictating what you will and won't put up with. You must be extremely worthy teachers to have Chinese value you so much. I'm happy for you. But not everyone can be a king or queen in China. Most of us are lowly naives, subject to the whims of Emperors. |
Like a old lady you leap into hyperbole .. and why not keep the posting on the subject and not the status of employment or whose kingdom Dave's members now occupy...and if you find your not appreciated enough for you liking then why sit on the sidelines and make snide comments .. why not instead try and figure out how you could be a better negotiator...start by limiting observations of people you know little about and concetrate on improving your own abilities... |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| JGC458 wrote: |
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| If this is the case, if the school is exploiting someone, or just paying as little as possible to whoever comes along, then is this the kind of place anyone would want to be working at? If I was working at such a place I'd have no problem renegotiating because I know I have nothing to lose as I wouldnt be staying at the place past the first contract. |
I AM working at a place that refused and refuses to renegotiate! And I choose to stay here coz the school's name looks good on a CV, the benefits are ok/good, the conditions are ok, and the majority of the students are good. I have a BA so they pay me a certain amount. If I had a Masters they'd pay me a bit more or a Phd another (little) bit more. But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? |
What's hard to understand is the inconsistency in your statement above.
If, as you say, your school is paying someone according to their education (BA, MA, PhD), if they're paying the higher educated more money, then they ARE paying due to experience and/or skills. The school shouldn't have to consider upping the salary because as you stated, they already (to a certain extent) pay according to education/skill/experience levels. In the situation you describe at your place of employment, potential (or current) employees could reasonably assume that the better qualified are getting more money.
The problem is, this isn't happening in China, not across the board anyway.
When I arrived at this school I was told that I would be paid a certain amount because that's what my education level warranted. So I accepted, because I wanted to be here. Once I got here though, I found out someone who had no degree was being paid more, and I knew I had been misled. At the end of the first term, I requested the same salary as the non-degree holder. I received a partial increase, but not till the next year was I paid more than the person who had no degree.
| JGC458 wrote: |
| And why is it so hard to understand that I put other considerations above immediate monetary gain??? |
Its not hard to understand. if there are other considerations you value more than some extra money, then fine. its up to you.
| JGC458 wrote: |
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| In "the West" most jobs have a pay scale range thats already set down. Have you ever read a job ad in the local unemployment office? I never once applied for a job back home that didnt have a range of pay available that was dependent on experience and qualification. |
You speak as if FTs are all the same, when we all know there are better and much worse FTs around. Why should the school assume that all FTs are of comparable good standard? |
All FTs are not the same, just like not all the employees anywhere are the same. No reasonable person among us would ever assume this, but I won't try getting into the minds of school FAOs who do the hiring for these places. I don't know what they're thinking.
What I do know is, that if you meet the criteria for a certain job you are deemed to at least have met the minimum standard required to do that job competently. meeting this minimum standard should set the minimum salary, people with more experience and more education should be expected to to perform at a higher level, and be rewarded accordingly.
And since there's no effective appraisal system in place here, the schools rely almost solely on student feedback to find out who's good and who's not good in the classroom. Not too effective in my opinion.
| JGC458 wrote: |
| If a school can save money by paying this year's new teachers less than last years' why is this so strange? Don't organisations back home/in "the West"/not in China do that as well? |
No, they do not do this in the West. I already brought this up once, most jobs/professions in developed countries have terms of reference and a salary range for every job, commensurate with education and experience. An organization in any developed country can't simply pay someone less than what they paid someone last year because they think they can get away with it. First, it would be illegal in many places, second, salaries don't go down in developed countries, they tend to go up (cost of living increases). At least the job I held back home had a salary increase of 4-6 % every year for everyone, more if promoted.
Schools in China on the other hand, CAN pay less (or more) based on a whim, and they do, because they can get away with it. Who's going to blow the whistle on them?
| JGC458 wrote: |
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| one of the things I like about the place I work is that they've made (human resources related to FTs) improvements over the time I've been here, and it doesnt go unnoticed. When a school demonstrates this type of behaviour, then the employees (should) want to return the favour, improving the quality of work and thereby improving the atmosphere of the workplace in general. Call it a sense of loyalty, which good employees and good employers should have towards one another. |
You and Eva really do seem to be in your own little world where you're the King and Queen of the castle dictating what you will and won't put up with. You must be extremely worthy teachers to have Chinese value you so much. I'm happy for you. But not everyone can be a king or queen in China. Most of us are lowly naives, subject to the whims of Emperors. |
I'm not a saint ( and thanks for nominating me King, but I decline the offer) and I have never dictated anything to my school. I know as well as anyone how easily we can all be replaced. What i do here is a good job on a consistent basis, which is why I'm still here four years on. Our school values people who put in an honest day's work and who don't nitpick 24/7 when bringing up any deficiencies. The school rewards that by taking care of reasonable requests quickly and by paying us fairly (my first year experience noted above was an anomaly i believe). This place isnt perfect, but its far and away better than the school I worked at before I came here, and I appreciate that. |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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some guy wrote
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| someone wrote (aka JGC458): But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? |
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"Random guy", I seem to have written carelessly and you understood something I didn't mean people to understand. What I meant to say was why is it that some people on here don't understand that some Chinese employers don't want to/won't renegotiate.
Cleric, how has this got anything to do with the pope?
And I now officially give up on this thread (for the time being). There's too much to read and I've too much to do offline. I'll come back later when I have more time and can be bothered - or less time and am looking to procrastinate.
Fare thee well  |
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shenyanggerry
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 619
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really see what how your level of education changes your competence to teach English. In the 30 odd years I've worked since completing my degree I can't remember one instance where I specifically used knowledge I'd acquired in the lecture theatre. (That doesn't apply to my TESL course.) Also, the level of English taught even to English majors is below the level expected of high school students in Canada (can't speak for the rest of the world).
That being said, I know what emphasis China places on a university education. I do have a friend without a degree whose ability to work with young children is spectacular. I would never expect to earn as much as he does if working with young the little ones. |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| JGC458 wrote: |
| If I had a Masters they'd pay me a bit more or a Phd another (little) bit more. But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? |
What's hard to understand is the inconsistency in your statement above.
If, as you say, your school is paying someone according to their education (BA, MA, PhD), if they're paying the higher educated more money, then they ARE paying due to experience and/or skills. |
Inconsistency?? I was talking about BAs, MAs, and Phds, generally known as "qualifications", not experience or skill. Oddly enough, in your own little inconsistency, you go on to correct yourself:
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| The school shouldn't have to consider upping the salary because as you stated, they already (to a certain extent) pay according to education/skill/experience levels. In the situation you describe at your place of employment, potential (or current) employees could reasonably assume that the better qualified are getting more money. |
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
The problem is, this isn't happening in China, not across the board anyway.
When I arrived at this school I was told that I would be paid a certain amount because that's what my education level warranted. So I accepted, because I wanted to be here. Once I got here though, I found out someone who had no degree was being paid more, and I knew I had been misled. At the end of the first term, I requested the same salary as the non-degree holder. I received a partial increase, but not till the next year was I paid more than the person who had no degree. |
Fair enough, and as I've previously stated, I'd have probably tried to renegotiate as well. Seems the school tried to save some money but you caught them out and you convinced them to do what an employee would think is fairer.
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
What I do know is, that if you meet the criteria for a certain job you are deemed to at least have met the minimum standard required to do that job competently. meeting this minimum standard should set the minimum salary, people with more experience and more education should be expected to to perform at a higher level, and be rewarded accordingly.
And since there's no effective appraisal system in place here, the schools rely almost solely on student feedback to find out who's good and who's not good in the classroom. Not too effective in my opinion. |
But often being foreign and speaking some English is the criteria. And why should employers be reasonable in China? The authorities (generally) aren't forcing them to.
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| JGC458 wrote: |
| If a school can save money by paying this year's new teachers less than last years' why is this so strange? Don't organisations back home/in "the West"/not in China do that as well? |
No, they do not do this in the West. |
I have a feeling that some employers in the West would attempt to if they could get away with it, but I'm not sure about the legalities of the issue so I'll concede the point.
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| Schools in China on the other hand, CAN pay less (or more) based on a whim, and they do, because they can get away with it. Who's going to blow the whistle on them? |
Perhaps more importantly, who in China wants to listen to the whistle-blowers?
| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
| What i do here is a good job on a consistent basis, which is why I'm still here four years on. Our school values people who put in an honest day's work and who don't nitpick 24/7 when bringing up any deficiencies. The school rewards that by taking care of reasonable requests quickly and by paying us fairly (my first year experience noted above was an anomaly i believe). This place isnt perfect, but its far and away better than the school I worked at before I came here, and I appreciate that. |
But you seem to imply that a Chinese school should reward an FT for doing a good job (by increasing their pay/benefits accordingly). I certainly think it would be fairer, but how can you (a non-Chinese) seem to imply that that is what the state of affairs should be? Surely Chinese employers and ultimately the Chinese government decide that. Though we can of course each try to influence them in our way. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| JGC458 wrote: |
| I have a feeling that some employers in the West would attempt to if they could get away with it, but I'm not sure about the legalities of the issue so I'll concede the point. |
Yes some of them would try to get away with paying people less. And that's why we have unions and labour laws to help keep these employers in line. And no-one needs to remind me that these laws are sometimes broken (sweatshops for example), I know that. Our system isn't perfect either, but that's the way it is.
I don't know if unions exist in China but if they do their power is likely very limited. and the labour laws in this country are still evolving.
I think I've said more than enough on this topic now
| JGC458 wrote: |
Cleric, how has this got anything to do with the pope?
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and Let's forget about the pope for now. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? |
When limiting one self, it is common to refer to what others in the work dynamic will and wont do....I have only suggested what the applicant could do if they found that the level of pay was not commiserated on a recognizable pay scale...what so hard to understand bout dat...and why would we as posters need to understand about your position in a particular school when we are speaking in generalities and the ability to take these generalities and turn them into a workable tactic to improve salary and perhaps "up" the value of the applicant in the market by encouraging them to present the skills that they feel will elevate their work status and translates into a better contract...and if a school wont negotiate ..then don�t ..play or fold ..simple as that...and there is no school in china tht is good for the cv ... working in china leaves your abilities on the back burner of scrutiny....
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| You speak as if FTs are all the same, when we all know there are better and much worse FTs around. Why should the school assume that all FTs are of comparable good standard? |
they shouldn�t, that is why pay levels have pay ranges...and part of a pay range is based on qualifications and part is based on individual performance ..but that is all beside the point as this post is concerned with renegotiation when an applicant feels that the pay is not based on a fair and equal level ..this kind of unequal pay range spells cronyism and what you seem to be offering is to just lay down and not try ..at least try ...to present your disappointments with the current pay schedule... |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
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| But they won't even consider upping the salary due to experience or skills. Why is this so hard to understand? |
When limiting one self, it is common to refer to what others in the work dynamic will and wont do |
You seem to suggest that I am (needlessly?) limiting myself by not forcing/convincing the school to up the salary/benefits or looking for a different job. You also seem to suggest that I am blaming others for my choice. But the reality is that only I can decide whether the choice I made was valid for my situation and my current needs.
| evaforsure wrote: |
| why would we as posters need to understand about your position in a particular school when we are speaking in generalities |
You are talking about what you think FTs should do, not generalities. I talked about my situation as "proof" of what I'm saying.
| evaforsure wrote: |
| and there is no school in china tht is good for the cv ... working in china leaves your abilities on the back burner of scrutiny.... |
I'm going to be living in China indefinately. I was referring to my CV while in China. I'm improving my CV for the West by doing a Masters and other stuff (which also helps in China). But I didn't specify China in my wording so your assumption is understandable.
| evaforsure wrote: |
| you seem to be offering is to just lay down and not try ..at least try ...to present your disappointments with the current pay schedule... |
What you are consistently pointing out is that everyone has the skills to renegotiate and the opportunity. As I've pointed out, the opportunity is not always there to successfully renegotiate - and not because of a deficiency in the FT's skills or determination, but simply because the school refuses to budge (coz it doesn't NEED to). Also, I do encourage FTs to stand up for themselves (and I have done so in many posts). But I also try to stress the value of trying to understand the nuances of the FT's particular situation - not simply assume that all situations are the same. |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: |
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double teamed
Last edited by evaforsure on Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| What you are consistently pointing out is that everyone has the skills to renegotiate and the opportunity. |
No what I have consistently pointed out is everyone can try...and not to defeat yourself before your turn at bat...
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| You seem to suggest that I am (needlessly?) limiting myself by not forcing/convincing the school to up the salary/benefits or looking for a different job. You also seem to suggest that I am blaming others for my choice. |
No one has ever used the term force.. no the question is, why do you ... Do you see people requesting pay razes based on their own determination of value to be forcing an employer to act? Why would anyone begrudge anyone else for asking ...so maybe not blame but jealousy ..who knows...but it astonish me that you would even argue the point of a FT asking for equal pay....like I said before .. if a woman was paid less for the same job.. would you still be giving the same "slack advice"...
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| I talked about my situation as "proof" of what I'm saying. |
I have failed to see any proof that an FT shouldn�t ask to be on equal footing pay wise as the next guy ...if they are equal in qualifications and experience ..or they think tht they are...what proof are you talking about...
The fact that you have been cheeky in some of the retorts as to the kingdom and such ..it does make me think you resent the advice or opinions given...but as for the reason .. the one thing you have right.. only you know... |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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eva, why is it you keep thinking that I'm telling people not to try to get what they think is doable? If they are convinced they can do it then they should try. I've never said otherwise. I don't understand why you keep implying that.
re "force", I've explained that my current school refused to negotiate. When I tried to negotiate they terminated "negotiations" forthwith. It's kind of difficult to negotiate/renegotiate when one side says "Bye bye, maybe we can do business in the future sometime". You will say that that was obviously a ploy by the school, and a clear opportunity wasted on my part, and how naive of me to take it at face value, bla, bla, bla. I maintain that it was simply what it seemed: a school that knows its value, that knows how much/little it needs to pay its FTs. I used the word "force" because you seem to be convinced that your/a random FT's negotiating skills will necessarily cause the desired effect. And yes, I think negotiation can be perceived as a type of "force". But it relies on the party-that's-persuaded wanting something the persuading-party can supply, and not being willing to go somewhere else to get it. My school obviously felt (and demonstrated) that I had no power of negotiation over it, no force, no ability to change it's determination to only pay ANY FT according to it's pre-stated salary scale.
eva, in that situation what do you suggest I should have done, considering I actually wanted to teach there, and the pay and benefits weren't actually bad (just could have been better)??
WHY do you KEEP stating that I am saying that FTs should NOT claim whatever they think is right????????????????? Please either prove that I have said that or just STOP saying that, coz it's getting irksome.
I HAVE always said that FTs can and should stand up for themselves. AND I've also said that they should try to understand their particular situation in order to try to be aware of the (various) possible consequences of their actions. Why is it a problem to say that? What is wrong with thinking about your actions before you take them? What was "weak" about what I did? Coz I get the distinct impression that you're implying weakness somewhere along the line...
********
Well you've added to your last post...
"Resent"????????? Why would I resent what you're saying. I thought I was making it abundantly clear that I think FTs should carefully consider the possible and likely consequences of their actions and the actual reality of their situation. What you're saying annoys me, and I really don't understand why you keep saying it.
And being cheeky is perfectly permissible - it seems to be anyway, loads of cheekiness goes on here. Definition: "impudent or irreverent, typically in an endearing or amusing way". I tried to be mildly amusing, but certainly not in a nasty way. I'm sorry if you felt it was nasty. |
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sharpe88
Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 226
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Smart negotiating is fine but do your homework before accepting an offer, same as in any country.
How would you like if the school "renegotiated" your salary downwards after seeing your performance ? |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| sharpe88 wrote: |
Smart negotiating is fine but do your homework before accepting an offer, same as in any country.
How would you like if the school "renegotiated" your salary downwards after seeing your performance ? |
They could just fire you.
Doing your homework is essential, but some of the homework isn't easy (or possible) to do until you're actually working for the school. |
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