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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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 Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
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Are some Filipinos considered to be native speakers of English?
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Of course there are exceptions, but the average teacher graduating with a degree in Education from a university in the Philippines is not a native speaker or even a near native speaker.
English is the medium of instruction in the Philippines but often only nominally so. As it was explained to me by more than one Filipino teacher, the base instruction is usually given in English but further explanation and discussion takes place in the local language. The students almost always speak in the local language inside and outside of class (again, of course there are exceptions).
Even very fluent English speakers from the Philippines do not have the cultural connection to English in the same way a native speaker does. Ask a Filipino teacher what a "rice burner" is they will likely tell you it is a faulty rice cooker. Ask a native speaker and they will tell you it is a Japanese made motorcycle.
There have likely been thousands of Philippine teachers here on dodgy visas in Japan over the years. They have been �sold" as equal substitutes for native speakers. They are not, Japanese students end up disappointed.
If they are used correctly as high level English speakers in cooperation with native speakers they can be used to good effect. Hopefully both the Japanese and Philippine governments will learn from the past and do the program right. |
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| fat_chris wrote: |
...
Are some Filipinos considered to be native speakers of English?
... |
Of course there are exceptions, but the average teacher graduating with a degree in Education from a university in the Philippines is not a native speaker or even a near native speaker.
English is the medium of instruction in the Philippines but often only nominally so. As it was explained to me by more than one Filipino teacher, the base instruction is usually given in English but further explanation and discussion takes place in the local language. The students almost always speak in the local language inside and outside of class (again, of course there are exceptions).
Even very fluent English speakers from the Philippines do not have the cultural connection to English in the same way a native speaker does. Ask a Filipino teacher what a "rice burner" is they will likely tell you it is a faulty rice cooker. Ask a native speaker and they will tell you it is a Japanese made motorcycle.
There have likely been thousands of Philippine teachers here on dodgy visas in Japan over the years. They have been �sold" as equal substitutes for native speakers. They are not, Japanese students end up disappointed.
If they are used correctly as high level English speakers in cooperation with native speakers they can be used to good effect. Hopefully both the Japanese and Philippine governments will learn from the past and do the program right. |
Pedagogically speaking, a fluent non-native teacher trained in Teaching English as a Foreign Language would be preferable to a native with none. Other than dealing with the odd bit of cultural trivia or perhaps pronunciation modeling, having an untrained instructor in front of the classroom merely on the criteria of being a native speaker of English is a bad idea. |
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cvmurrieta
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 209
Location: Sendai, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| ripslyme wrote: |
| cvmurrieta wrote: |
| As for the pic of the Filipino man and white man, let's take it one step further. Most would choose the white man even if he is from Eastern Europe but the Filipino guy was actually a Filipino American who was born and raised in San Diego, California. |
When I first arrived in Japan on the JET Program, my host institution said they were disappointed that they did not get a "real" American.   |
To which I have to respond, what is considered a real American nowadays anyway? It sounds as if the host institution gave into a stereotype. In places like California, while whites are still the largest group, they are no longer even the majority. I can attest to that from my previous job with the state of California. OK, maybe the example of the Filipino American, maybe I should have used Riverside, California instead of San Diego. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:12 am Post subject: |
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At one of my part-time jobs at a language school, we have;
a Russian, an Indian, a Singaporean, a Bangeladeshi, a Swiss,
and we have had a Malay, a German...
So, yes it is very possible. Often speakers who are near-native speakers have other advantages, in that they know the difficulties of learning some aspects of English. They sometimes are also more patient at dealing with student mistakes, and they can display good examples of various kinds of English, or Englishes. |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| ripslyme wrote: |
| Pedagogically speaking, a fluent non-native teacher trained in Teaching English as a Foreign Language would be preferable to a native with none. Other than dealing with the odd bit of cultural trivia or perhaps pronunciation modeling, having an untrained instructor in front of the classroom merely on the criteria of being a native speaker of English is a bad idea. |
To continue on that thread, a native speaker with no training in language teaching would be preferable to a non native speaker with no training in language teaching. Having untrained teacher from a native speaking country with a proper visa or an untrained teacher from the Philippines with a dodgy visa are both bad ideas. I submit if done right there can be a balance of trained and qualified teachers from both groups.
| gaijinalways wrote: |
| ... Often speakers who are near-native speakers have other advantages, in that they know the difficulties of learning some aspects of English. They sometimes are also more patient at dealing with student mistakes, and they can display good examples of various kinds of English, or Englishes. |
One specific advantage of Filipino teachers in addition to the understanding they have of learning new languages would be their understanding of the culture of the Japanese students (more so I think than a teacher from say India or the U.S.). I submit a balance of native and non native teachers would serve the students best. |
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ripslyme
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 481
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| cvmurrieta wrote: |
| ripslyme wrote: |
| cvmurrieta wrote: |
| As for the pic of the Filipino man and white man, let's take it one step further. Most would choose the white man even if he is from Eastern Europe but the Filipino guy was actually a Filipino American who was born and raised in San Diego, California. |
When I first arrived in Japan on the JET Program, my host institution said they were disappointed that they did not get a "real" American. |
To which I have to respond, what is considered a real American nowadays anyway? |
They were looking for a Caucasian. fwiw, my ethnic background is Filipino (both parents immigrated in the 60s), born and raised in the USA. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
Even very fluent English speakers from the Philippines do not have the cultural connection to English in the same way a native speaker does. Ask a Filipino teacher what a "rice burner" is they will likely tell you it is a faulty rice cooker. Ask a native speaker and they will tell you it is a Japanese made motorcycle.
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If you had asked me what a rice burner is, I'd have likely said something to burn rice with. Either its US specific, car/racing culture specific, or got derogatory/negative connotations (which after some searching on the term, seems quite likely) so not used everyday public speech (But it seems to be a bit of all 3). And my search also says its not only Japanese made bikes but all Japanese made vehicles.
That's like me saying that a native English speaker would know what "bobby" and meant. I've asked Americans this, none got it right and most thought it was a name.
Advanced foreign learners of English often have much better knowledge of the grammar than a native. If you asked the average native speaker for a sentence using the present perfect or the passive, you'd likely get a blank look. In this sense, an untrained native speaker would be useless in comparison to untrained foreign speaker if English; at least the foreigner is likely to understand what it is they are supposed to be teaching even if they don't know how. |
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Tiger Beer
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Hong Kong
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Ugh, Philippines.
They SHOULD be trying to figure out ways to get Japanese down to the Philippines to study THERE.
Typical Philippines thinking though...why not send our skilled elsewhere instead. No sense in encouraging people in our country to start businesses to lure their money for our general economy. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiger Beer wrote: |
Ugh, Philippines.
They SHOULD be trying to figure out ways to get Japanese down to the Philippines to study THERE.
Typical Philippines thinking though...why not send our skilled elsewhere instead. No sense in encouraging people in our country to start businesses to lure their money for our general economy. |
It's because the amount of money that an English teacher earns in Japan minus Japanese living expenses is still more than they could get teaching Japanese people in the Philippines. They know that a lot of Filipino people overseas send a significant amount of their salary back to the Philippines and that amount is actually more than they could earn doing the same job in the Philippines, which equals more spending power in the Philippines (because the relatives who get the money then spend it in the Philippines thereby putting it into their economy) if the people are outside of it. |
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passport220
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 117
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| Tiger Beer wrote: |
Ugh, Philippines.
They SHOULD be trying to figure out ways to get Japanese down to the Philippines to study THERE.
Typical Philippines thinking though...why not send our skilled elsewhere instead. No sense in encouraging people in our country to start businesses to lure their money for our general economy. |
It's because the amount of money that an English teacher earns in Japan minus Japanese living expenses is still more than they could get teaching Japanese people in the Philippines. They know that a lot of Filipino people overseas send a significant amount of their salary back to the Philippines and that amount is actually more than they could earn doing the same job in the Philippines, which equals more spending power in the Philippines (because the relatives who get the money then spend it in the Philippines thereby putting it into their economy) if the people are outside of it. |
Tiger Beer has it right. The "velocity" of money multiples the funds Japanese would spend while in country learning English. Add direct and indirect side investment from the exposure of having more Japanese in country and it is not even close.
However, money coming in as overseas remittances gives the greedy bast*ards of the government in Manila a better chance of getting their hands on the money as it comes through limited banking channels with passport control keeping tabs on who the earners are.
I think however that T.B.'s point is larger the just the esl business. The Philippines has huge systemic problems in how they develop nearly all of their assets and markets. Figure out how a country in the heart of S.E. Asia can be a net importer of rice and you are looking at a drop in the bucket of the problems. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| i see. never mind, then! |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| That's like me saying that a native English speaker would know what "bobby" and meant. I've asked Americans this, none got it right and most thought it was a name. |
Depends on how much they travel. That and "Bobby" is a name as well, especially in the American south (Bobby Sue, etc). |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| Quote: |
| That's like me saying that a native English speaker would know what "bobby" and meant. I've asked Americans this, none got it right and most thought it was a name. |
Depends on how much they travel. That and "Bobby" is a name as well, especially in the American south (Bobby Sue, etc). |
Not to the British though. Bobby as a name is quite rare. It might be used occassionaly as a nickname but Bob is more common. You ask a Brit the same question and they pretty much always tell you that its a common name for our police.
Point is, you can't base someones mastery of English on whether they know a couple of colloquial terms, since they are not only country specific, but culture specific, class specific, regionally specific, group specific and often age specific. Most native speakers of English don't even understand all of their own country's slang let alone that of other English speaking countries.
If we (all native speakers of English) don't know all our own slang, we can't expect anymore from a Philippino speaker of English. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
Even very fluent English speakers from the Philippines do not have the cultural connection to English in the same way a native speaker does. Ask a Filipino teacher what a "rice burner" is they will likely tell you it is a faulty rice cooker. Ask a native speaker and they will tell you it is a Japanese made motorcycle.
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And I'm a native speaker born and raised in New Zealand, and had no idea what a rice burner was either, if not literally something that burns rice. You probably don't know what jandals are, but that doesn't mean your English is suspect, even though that's an everyday word in NZ. There is a lot of regionalism in English, and even within a region not all age groups and demographics are going to know the slang of all the others. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| passport220 wrote: |
| Even very fluent English speakers from the Philippines do not have the cultural connection to English in the same way a native speaker does. Ask a Filipino teacher what a "rice burner" is they will likely tell you it is a faulty rice cooker. Ask a native speaker and they will tell you it is a Japanese made motorcycle. |
I'm a native speaker of English, and I'd never heard that term before.
Can you explain to me why an understanding of idiomatic English is important, given the international contexts in which NNSs of English actually use their language? |
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