Job Discussion Forums

[Sheikh Ago]

I don't need experience falling down to know that it hurts...

U.S. law is pretty clear about this. And yes, I have enforced contracts in U.S. courts against foreign entities. Sign a K in the U.S., and it is binding and enforceable here..

Whether you will actually be able to recover anything on a judgment is dependent on the facts of the case....

Nobody deserves to have a contract breached or to be cheated. and I never guaranteed that your ER would "snap to" and start being honest. I merely stated that you should give yourself every edge if a dispute arises. I agree with the scenarios posed earlier..you should always get as much as you can in writing. At least then, even when the ER does breach, you have something as opposed to NOTHING. Is this such a difficult concept to grasp? I taught law students for 2 years and they seemed to get it....and no one ever accused them of being too smart.

But hey, what do I know about law and contracts? I have never been to KSA, where apparently, grits do cook faster than they do in the rest of the grit-eating world.

You may rely on luck, and you may throw up your hands and say "there was nothing I could do anyway"...

Or you can at least cya and give yourself a basis for what little hope there might be..

Good luck!

[Middle East Beast]

[Stephen Jones]

[Stephen Jones]

[Sheikh Ago]

You raise a valid issue Stephen. The express wording of a K ordinarily addresses the applicable law, and jurisdiction of enforcement. But let's explore the scenario where applicable law and jurisdiction are not expressly stated;

If either signatory to a contract is a citizen of of the U.S. , and the contract was signed by either of them on U.S. soil, the contract may be enforced or otherwise adjudicated in a U.S. court at either the state or federal level depending on the specifics of the matter. This is likely to be the scenario if you sign a contract with a recruiter that does business in the U.S..

Of course, in the case of an American already employed in KSA, you have the sticky problem of getting out of the country and back to the U.S. to attend to your rights. Without discussing flight options, I would strongly suggest retaining the services of an American-based attorney to get the claim filed in the U.S. while you remain on KSA soil.

Likely more relevant to the ESL profession in KSA;

In the event the express wording of a K specifies a foreign jurisdiction, ordinarily you must commence your adjudication of the matter in the jurisdiction specified. This is not the last word, though. If the actions of a foreign entity or government towards a U.S. citizen clearly violate the U.S. Constitution, the citizen will likely be able to raise a claim in U.S. courts upon return there (or even get it filed in the U.S. while still in KSA). What remedy the teacher will obtain here depends on the assets and operations of the employer in the U.S. Agreed, this is not an ideal way to have to get satisfaction, especially if the KSA employer has no assets here. Further, I doubt that any KSA tribunal will give much weight to a U.S court decision, so good luck getting the judgment enforced there...

Also notable is the fact that U.S. courts will likely only offer recourse AFTER you have exhausted your legal options abroad. That is of course, unless you can show that the government proceedings and actions were constitutionally violative from the outset of the proceedings. Again, good luck there.....it is a high standard and a lot of work. The expense may be cost-prohibitive too....

I realize these are not reassuring options, but they are options. They are better than doing nothing. The gist of my posts, is that as a matter of course it is a sound idea to get as much as possible in writing..and more writing...and more writing. And signed. While it is no guarantee of success with unscrupulous masters, it is better than "you said--I said" when a dispute arises. Documentation and clarity makes your case credible regardless of the forum. If your employer engages in dishonest labor practices, you can either try to convince them to perform according to the contract, or you can go to the labor board, or you can do nothing... because you have nothing.

Me, I'm gonna start with the employer and hope that honest men will come to agreement. If that falls short, it is off to the labor tribunal if necessary, and then the U.S courts if there is still no resolution. If all of that fails, I'll argue my case wherever I think it might achieve something positive. (Like here!) But when I do that, I want to be able to provide substantive evidence as opposed to a mere narrative.

I think we all agree that teaching English abroad is no bowl of cherries. The global employment climate is worsening, and apparently, it is particularly perilous in KSA. This seems to be the consistent sentiment of KSA ESL vets. Well, I still have my heart set on teaching in KSA and learning about its culture, heritage, and most of all, its amazing people. In fact, I can't wait to get there. I don't recall being so excited about the start of an adventure...But thanks you KSA ESL vets, for the insight, the tips, and the warnings...

And thanks again to the other posters at the threads. This thread and others have given a voice to the concerns and questions of newbies, the wisdom and warnings of the ESL vets, and the mumblings and grumblings of a few... a few... a few...

Well who would've thought... Me, at a loss for words!

Best of luck to all!

[rigel]

The problem is the agents will sign the documents in one locale and claim they signed them in another. All one has to do is lie and he avoids liability. That's what sending contracts through the international mail that only you have actually signed gets you. It's what making scans of contracts you alone have signed and sending those via email gets you. Unless you're on location, there's no proof of where the documents were signed by the 'other' party.

Perhaps the best thing to do is go through all the rigmarole of getting to the job, and then signing the contract again together.

Some agents I've dealt with want me to add my contract changes to an addendum at the end. That way it can be conveniently 'forgotten' when it's time to make copies.

[rigel]

[Sheikh Ago]

Hey Rigel.

The requirement is that one party (the teacher in this instance) be on U.S. soil when he signs. The KSA recruiter with whom I have accepted an offer does biz in Pennsylvania... so the point is moot for me at least.

But my thinking is that any document signed by the employer will likely be useful in clarifying disputes. I use addendums to contracts regularly ...they just require clarity, and reference to the original k..and of course....

a signature....

all the best

[rigel]

Mat, what about adding this statement at the end of your addendum:

"Not honoring the points in the above contract is grounds for immediate termination of the agreement. The employee will be paid immediately the outstanding amount he is owed, given an exit permit, and allowed to leave the country."

I'm working on this clause today. I want to make sure it has teeth.


If I have my mushroom cloud laying contract in hand, and my employer tries to break it, I'm sure I could take it to the US Embassy and let those guys know what's going on. There's a way out the KSA if you're armed with a powerful contract, I imagine. You may be flying to Bahrain on a cargo prop, but you'd be on a plane, at least. And you wouldn't be paying any 6 grand to get out, either.

Tell me there's no way out of there and you'll see a guy floating over the border slung under a balloon. Or a bunch of balloons like that guy in LA did back in 80s.

[Sheikh Ago]

keep dreaming rigel...

you've got the right idea, but seriously...your wording needs tweaking. Too ...too....combative perhaps? Just my humble op after reading about KSA employers.....But you addend away, and let me know your luck...

[rigel]

[veiledsentiments]

[johnslat]

Dear veiledsentiments,

"If you are ever in a country that is having a revolution or attacks and you need to get out... go directly to the British Embassy... the American staff will have already left and there will only be a watchman there to protect the building along with the poor bureaucrat that drew the shortest straw and is stuck there with you and all the other abandoned Americans."

Which is exactly what happened to me (and many other Americans) in Shiraz, Iran in 1979. When matters were starting to get a bit scary, we went to the Consulate only to find that the Consulate staff had all decamped and the place was all locked and boarded up. No notice was given, although the Consul had contact numbers for many of us. I didn't try the British Council - though perhaps I should have - but got out on my own about two months after the "Islamic Revolution" (all the airports were shut down for that period.)
Regards,
John

[desultude]

Oh! V.S., you are a hoot!

And soooooo correct.

Yes, a good contract and 4 Riyals will get you a cup of Starbucks at Dahran Mall- so long as you go in the women's entrance and are properly covered. (Dahran Mall has quite aggressive religious police, who even harrass the older ladies).

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

You mean...you mean...GASP!...we were lied to by John Wayne and his ilk???

Ohhh! That's SO unamerican! Turn in your passports immediately!

NCTBA