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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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 Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hey John... I know about a half dozen people who were left stranded in Iran... and another batch who had the same experience when Turkey invaded Cyprus. They were flown out by the British... for free...
VS
(you'll have to come and get it NCTBA... should I order a pizza? beer?) |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
You can't imagine the complete lack of interest that you can encounter at a US embassy. After you leave the embassy following your visit concerning your diddly little employment issue, you will hear them laughing that you even think they would care or get involved. They will do NOTHING!! The only possible way to get any attention from a US Embassy is to be blown up or shot by alleged terrorists. That might get them on television back home when they bring you flowers in the hospital.
They will not help you get out of the country. They will not help you get your passport from your employer. They will not help you get an exit visa. [Emphasis mine] And... they will definitely not fly you out themselves.
VS |
That was my recent experience. You summarized the US Embassy's concern well, VS. |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Mat Jasniewski wrote: |
Of course, in the case of an American already employed in KSA, you have the sticky problem of getting out of the country and back to the U.S. to attend to your rights. Without discussing flight options, I would strongly suggest retaining the services of an American-based attorney to get the claim filed in the U.S. while you remain on KSA soil.
In the event the express wording of a K specifies a foreign jurisdiction, ordinarily you must commence your adjudication of the matter in the jurisdiction specified. This is not the last word, though. If the actions of a foreign entity or government towards a U.S. citizen clearly violate the U.S. Constitution, the citizen will likely be able to raise a claim in U.S. courts upon return there (or even get it filed in the U.S. while still in KSA). What remedy the teacher will obtain here depends on the assets and operations of the employer in the U.S. Agreed, this is not an ideal way to have to get satisfaction, especially if the KSA employer has no assets here. Further, I doubt that any KSA tribunal will give much weight to a U.S court decision, so good luck getting the judgment enforced there...
Also notable is the fact that U.S. courts will likely only offer recourse AFTER you have exhausted your legal options abroad. That is of course, unless you can show that the government proceedings and actions were constitutionally violative from the outset of the proceedings. Again, good luck there.....it is a high standard and a lot of work. The expense may be cost-prohibitive too....
This thread and others have given a voice to the concerns and questions of newbies, the wisdom and warnings of the ESL vets, and the mumblings and grumblings of a few... a few... a few...
Well who would've thought... Me, at a loss for words!
Best of luck to all! |
So, it seems that one has to retain a lawyer in the US before going to the KSA (seems it would be very difficult to do so after you're in the KSA). Costly. Ka-ching! Doesn't say much for the integrity or worth of a job in the KSA when you have to retain legal representation for protection just to take the job.
Then, you try to resolve the issue in the KSA system first. Well, first you have to find a Saudi lawyer you can trust. Are you at that point still working for the employer? If not, where are you staying, and who's paying for it? How long will you have to stay? How will you get around. Taxis? Ka-ching! Logistics!
Then, you come back to the states to pursue the matter. Costly, as I doubt a lawyer will take such a case on a contingency basis. Then, say you get a judgment in your favor. Like you stated, good luck getting anything from it.
So what good is all of this? Something is better than nothing only when that something is of some benefit, in this case, a settlement in your favor. Something that accomplishes nothing isn't better than nothing...it IS nothing.
You just end up spinning your wheels and spending your money on legal action. Ka-ching...ka-ching...ka-ching. The beneficiary in all of this mess...the lawyer. There goes a chunk of the money you earned in the KSA, which is why a lot of teachers go there to begin with. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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If you are going to end up taking legal action over a work contract, then Saudi lawyers are much cheaper than American ones, and Saudi Labour Courts much more worker friendly than American courts.
The fact that you would still undergo immense pressure taking an employer to court in Saudi, that you could delegate to a lawyer but only if you were 100% sure of him, and that even if you win you would still have to wait months or years whilst the employer goes to the Supreme Court ought to make it clear that suing should be a last resort. (And this is true pretty well everywhere).
Adding to that all the fun of doing it in another jurisdiction, and you can see how all this talk about taking employers to courts in the States is just an amusing distraction. |
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Sheikh Ago
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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VS wrote "Really... you two are living in a legal fantasy world here.."
Not me, VS...I only advocate proper preparation, and hope. I have no notion that waving a K under my employer's nose will transform him from a dishonest man into an honest one, or that seeking redress before a foreign labour board will yield suitable and timely results, or that the good folks at the U.S. Consulate will be of ANY assistance. I know all-to-well the shortcomings of using the any court system to achieve results. As for U.S. Consulates, I never suggested they would help anyone...I am personally all-too-familiar with the ambivalence and inaction for which U.S. Embassies abroad have become known...
My posts merely point out the variety of means you can try to use to avoid labour disputes, and ways to resolve them when they arise. All I advocate is the concept that you must scrutinize opportunities closely, and seek to memorialize in writing with signatures, any alleged meeting of the minds. I make no guarantees as to how particular employers will behave or misbehave, nor do I tell you that following a particular course of conduct will assure results. I simply state that you should do all you can to protect your interests. This seems logical in view of the alternative (apparently embraced by a couple of disheartened folks here at the threads)....to do NOTHING, and then complain later when things go badly.
The least you can do is to cover your arse...if you do nothing because you PRESUME that nothing you do will make a difference, you are setting yourself for disappointment and failure....
Jeez, I never encountered so many people willing to just give up and take what they get. I keep reading posts where the core argument seems to be "nothing works, so why try to do anything?" This is a circuitous and self-defeating approach. Have employment conditions in KSA so deteriorated that sensible and educated people no longer believe anything honest or decent happens there? Why travel there in the first place if this is your predisposition? Explore greener pastures elsewhere...
And if this your view based upon repeated or prolonged experience inside KSA, I have one more piece of advice...
Come in out of the sun and heat and relax with a cold drink..you need a break. 
All the best,
Mat
Last edited by Sheikh Ago on Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Middle East Beast
Joined: 05 Mar 2008
Posts: 836
Location: Up a tree
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Mat Jasniewski wrote: |
I have never been to KSA, where apparently, grits do cook faster than they do in the rest of the grit-eating world.
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Geez, Mat, and you're the man with all the answers. As far as "disheartened folks," I wonder to whom you could possible be referring?
What do I know? I've only been exposed to Saudi Arabia for the past 15 years. I've shared my real-life experiences there, but I guess I couldn't begin to doubt your insights into the answers to all our vocational troubles there.
If you knew about the KSA, you'd know there are no greener ($$$$) pastures. THAT'S why a lot of us go there. We reach our breaking points at different lengths of exposure there. Since I have been there for so long, some would reply asking why I stayed if it was so bad. But, if I'd only been there for a year or two, others would claim that I just didn't give the place a chance.
You can't win. You just do what you have to do. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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I think BOTH sides are right here. It's not going to hurt to "CYA" as regards contracts, labor law, etc.
On the other hand, in the KSA, it's almost certainly not going to help, either.
Saudi Arabia does HAVE laws, but all too often they're not worth the paper they're written on. In disputes, it always comes down to "Who's Got the More Wasta." And guess what - it's not going to be you.
Unlike many/most other lands, the Kingdom is NOT "a nation built upon the rule of law." It's built upon "relationships": family, clan, tribe, etc.
Regards,
John |
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Sheikh Ago
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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That's the point I am making MEB. I don't have YOUR answers, I only have mine. They are based on my experience....what fault do you find with the substance of my remarks? I keep reading remarks addressed to the messenger instead of the message. What advice or information did I put forth that is unrealistic or untrue?
And $$$$ was obviously not what I was referring to when I spoke about "greener pastures". If that is truly your view, then take your paycheck (and other benefits) and please quit bemoaning your lot, or worse, discouraging others from pursuing a similar course. You got the money you came for, right? You are still there, aren't you?
Based on the tone of many comments posted, I read a lot of dissatisfaction and distrust. Let's set aside the impertinent remarks (momentarily) . We really have a different core view of life, I think... I do not think being optimistic and positive should be so quickly equated with naivete and inexperience. I turned in my rose-coloured spectacles when I graduated law school a million years ago...
I am guessing you think otherwise. And I am guessing I 'll get another remark about how ill-informed and inexperienced I am compared to you and other dissatisfied KSA ESL vets. Okay, I get the point....
"KSA is a rough place to do business, and you better expect the worst. Anything you do will probably not help you." Does that just about sum it up?
Thanks for the advice...now if we could just get a bit of encouragement...
Mat |
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Sheikh Ago
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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no disagreement with John's remarks, either.
Live smart, and hope. (Even in KSA) A concept with which we can all agree....
I hope...
Sorry if I offend anyone with my remarks. I believe in being honest and forthright. I really do appreciate (and respect!) the input of KSA ESL vets....
I guess that is why I keep coming back for more....
Mat |
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Sheikh Ago
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose now would be a grand time for NCTBA to inject some comic relief to this here thread...
Where, oh where, is the man from oz with the big heart? |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mat,
He's probably out doing his usual charity work among the widows and orphans.
But another point to consider: how many posters here are fluent enough in written Arabic to be able to read and fully understand the Arabic version of their contracts? How many who aren't/weren't will take/took that version to a trusted Arabic speaker to check how it compared with the English version - because it's ONLY the Arabic version that matters.
My English version stated that we would be provided with "airfare" and "medication," which were both incorrect. It should have read "airline tickets" and "medical care."
Regards,
John |
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Sheikh Ago
Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hey John.
I am actually looking forward to having my contract translated when it arrives. I am fortunate to have a few top-notch Arabic-to-English translators who will help. They, too are eager to see what I receive in writing. It should prove interesting and educational. I also hope it reassures me in enough detail so that I am induced to sign...
I am eager to explore the Mysterious Magic Kingdom.... |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Mat,
The problem there is that you may not GET the "Arabic version" until you actually have arrived in the Kingdom (and asked for a copy of it.)
I can't state that with certainty for I'm not sure it everyone does it that way. But I know it was done that way for me and all the others where I worked.
All the best.
Regards,
John |
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rigel
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| Middle East Beast wrote: |
What do I know? I've only been exposed to Saudi Arabia for the past 15 years. I've shared my real-life experiences there, but I guess I couldn't begin to doubt your insights into the answers to all our vocational troubles there.
.... |
My hat is definitely off to anyone who has 15 years' experience in the Sandy Gulag.
Respect. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Mat Jasniewski wrote: |
I suppose now would be a grand time for NCTBA to inject some comic relief to this here thread...
Where, oh where, is the man from oz with the big heart? |
"Knock, knock..."
NCTBA |
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