Job Discussion Forums

[elliot_spencer]

Hey guys, I am wondering if you could help me.

I wanted to know if Shanghai is a lot more expensive than Hangzhou.
I've been offered a job in Shanghai paying 8000RMB a month and one in Hangzhou paying 5000RMB both with free accommodation.

Are there cost of livings roughly the same?

THanks

[edlish]

I am not in China yet (I also want to move to Hangzhou) but have been reading as much as I can. I found a website that has some city cost data that might help you. Unfortunately it doesn't have Hangzhou listed, but it does have average China city data, Shanghai data and several other cities that might help you. Go to: http://www.mykindachina.com and click on City Cost Guide in the menu on the left of the screen. You will be taken to a landing page and you will need to click again to get to the real data pages.

My impression is that, if you have free accommodations in both places, you would fare better in Shanghai if you are more intent on savings than drinking it away at the nightspots. Basic costs of sundries and food are a relatively small part of your monthly budget, and they don't have much budgetary impact on that 3,000 RMB extra that you would make in Shanghai.

I was trying to make the decision about where to go, but after talking at length with a woman I know who grew up in Hangzhou, it is a clear cut decision for me to choose Hangzhou over Shanghai. About the worst thing she could say about Hangzhou was that it has bad air pollution - like all Chinese cities. But she was very positive in all other aspects of her praise for her home town (city).

I hope this helps! Good luck. I hope to be there in January.

[thefuzz]

[edlish]

Sounds like you've been around China a bit. I'm very open to suggestions still. Designating a city at this stage gives me more focus, and my friend's family is very close to my family and would be a great resource for me trying to settle into the country.

[vikuk]

[edlish]

I've spent about two months poring over hundreds of forums trying to figure out which country I'd like to move to. It's a real juggling act, and in every single case, there are countless horror stories told by FTs in those countries. I've been drawn to China all along and have decide that is where I'd like to go. I am going abroad for the first time in my adult life, however I grew up as a child in a military family and lived in Germany and Turkey. I tell you this because, I have always felt a bit like a gypsy, but have been tied down with marriage, kids and jobs for years, and finally now have a chance to make the big change I've dreamed of.

I love teaching, having started a non-profit company years ago where we taught inner-city teachers how to use computers. I created the curriculum and personally taught almost all of the classes for six years. I am currently volunteering locally teaching ESL to Hispanic immigrants... and loving it.

China attracts me because of it's incredible history, both ancient and recent. It is a fascinating force that is affecting our entire world. It is an ancient civilization, and yet it seems like a naive, young country at the same time. I am coming there because I think it will be an endless source of exploration and becoming immersed in Chinese daily experience. I've already decided that I want to learn conversational bMandarin as quickly as possible. I've taken a couple of online lessons and think it will be a fascinating language (I've already done Latin and French and started a little Russian.)

I'm looking forward to making a contribution to a society that needs help. I am also looking forward to finding friends who are Chinese and ex-pat friends as well.

For my first place, I feel most comfortable moving to one of China's more modern cities rather than a smaller community where I might feel more significant culture-shock. I'm tempted by Shanghai, but that might be a bit larger than what I'd like. Although Hangzhou is quite large, it sounds as though it will be a more reasonable pace than Shanghai. There are so many cities to choose from - Hangzhou was on a number of lists of "The Best of China..." and with family friends there, it seems like a logical choice. There doesn't seem to be anyplace in China with clean air or a great climate, but this region seems to be a compromise at least with the climate (but not the air.)

Nothing is in concrete yet with my decision. But like I said, I'm open to any helpful suggestions from you or anyone else who reads this.

Oh, and a follow up on my previous post... I plan to come over to China at the beginning of January 2010. That is as early as I can get there with all I have to do before leaving. I'll get my 120 hours of TESOL for my certification before I get there. And I have a BA from a prestige university from many years ago. Do you think, if I choose a city such as Hangzhou, that I should come over on my own and find a job when I am there or should I start applying for jobs now and hope to have something nailed down when I get there?

[vikuk]

[edlish]

It seems that everywhere I look I find issues that seem to disqualify the country or disqualify me:
* Korea - I'm too old, age 57, unless I go with a private company, and they seem even worse there than in China from my reading.
* Japan - age discrimination, very high cost of living.
* Singapore - English is primary language, and cost of living to salary ratio is not good.
* Thailand, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia - very low salaries, less developed than China.
* Western Europe - nearly impossible due to the EU passport/Visa situation.
* Eastern Europe - economy is dead and they can't afford to learn English right now.
* Russia - scams everywhere and a very violent society compared to everywhere else, also sluggish economy and an ever-increasingly intrusive government dictating curriculum to FTs.
* Middle East - no personal interest or desire to go there, war zones.
* Africa - too dangerous and potentially volatile politically where it isn't dangerous.
* South America/Mexico - very low wages relative to higher costs of living, plus I'm least interested in that region.

If you disagree with the above, I'd like to hear why.

If I read any of the forums for any of these areas, I get much the same advice as what you are telling me here. So I basically solicit anyone's opinion, filter it through my own set of criteria, add a little seasoning and bake until late December when I'll probably make my final decision.

[vikuk]

[Hansen]

The problem is that the type of school many of us would like to work at is not allowed to legally hire foreigners. Small schools in the countryside also have no budget to pay a foreigner.

In order to legally hire foreigners, to sponsor them for a Z visa, one must comply with numerous requirements. Even government schools are challenged by the regs. The smaller schools are simply intimidated. It is much easier for them to illegally employ a foreigner who was sponsred by a larger school.

The money issue is also a very real one. Country schools do not usually attract wealthy students. There are exceptions. Certain prestigious schools located in developing districts may hire foreigners. These schools are not the ideal for most FTs. They have their own issues.

I'm not sure what kind of schools can legally employ an FT who has no/limited college education and/or lacks a bachelor's degree. FAOs, bent on having an FT, will resort to numerous scams in order to secure one. This includes deceit, falsification, and other types of dishonesty.

Not only must the school want to hire you, they must convince the povincial FAO that you meet the requirements being enforced by that office.

[jibbs]

[edlish]

[nickpellatt]

Edlish - I think there are two schools of thought about coming and finding work, or coming over with a job lined up.

The former may give you some freedom and choice, and by meeting people locally, and getting to see and meet employers, you may avoid some of the less desirable ones, the ones who seem wonderful online. The types who make promises they cant keep. This advantage may be offset by the difficulties in getting a visa, or the correct visa, when you are in China. Added to this, are increased start up costs ... for initial accom and money until the first pay cheque comes in. Getting the Z visa may mean a Hong Kong trip or similar too, which also may mean more money.

The latter should eliminate the visa issue ... but then you may be tied into the school who arranged the visa, and when you arrive it may not be as rosy as it appeared, or as was suggested.

I would agree with Vikuk that a job with fewer hours may be the way to go. This will give you the chance to explore, start a new hobby, or invest time in an old one. I think lots of people may suggest the ancient and wonderful history of China can be hard to find ... but China, even the worst parts or less desirable things, can provide hours of interest to the newcomer. Walking the streets and watching life unfold can be great, if thats your bag of course. A good bunch of students to spend your free time with helps too of course. Taking up the random invites to dinner, to meet family and so on can also provide wonderful memories, and talking points.

The comments in the thread are all pretty true ... but I still think you can have a great time in China, and I hope things work out well for you!

[edlish]

[Zero]

Another foreign teacher heads for the sunny shores of China, fresh-faced and looking for love ...

Be careful with those Chinese women. Things aren't as simple as they seem.