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which nationalities can work legally in Indonesia ?
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seaskyclay



Joined: 24 Mar 2004
Posts: 32
Location: Vietnam

PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that it is related to the Irish situation, but, yes, I personally do think that South Africans should be counted as native speakers and Canadians, if they are completely bilingual, should be as well. People who happen to grow up with two native languages shouldn't be considered any less a 'native speaker' of English than someone with one L1.

Regarding people from Ireland, they should no more be discriminated against than the English, Scots or Welsh. Their first language is English; most are not even bilingual. Sure, they must also learn Irish Gaelic at school, but the generations of native Irish speakers are now grandparents and great-grandparents. So, I continue to be confused by the discrimination against Irish citizens in Indonesia.
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Atoms for Peace



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 135
Location: NKRI

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a problem of ignorance more than anything. "Irish people speak Irish" goes the perceived wisdom. As for South Africans - not a hope. I've met a few and they say every single time they tell Indonesians they are from South Africa, they get the same response: "but you're not black!"

There is simply no way anybody is going to support a change in the law allowing more "job stealing foreigners" to work here in an election year.
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Vertumnus



Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Indonesia

PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 9:42 am    Post subject: Other native speakers Reply with quote

When we talk about other countries that are not distinctly recognized as "native speaker" countries (aside from such obvious ones as R. Ireland), we run into a conundrum.

Canada has a majority of English speakers (over 75%), but it is an officially bilingual country where less than 25% speak French. Some of the French speakers see no point in changing the language situation there. It is legally on an even par with English, yet perhaps 15% speak French only, and mostly on the east coast. If you hire a Canadian, it is strongly likely that the person will be fluent in English, although their accent may, for example, be French or Skandinavian.

America is dominated by English, but this is not a constitutional choice, and experts debate its legal status. Spanish, over the past 20 or so years, has become a strong second language even in northern states due to large hispanic populations. In some states, Spanish is starting to gain legal recognition, and in cities where there is a strong hispanic presence, you may not be able to get a job if you can't use Spanish. Yet, the same rule applies to Americans that applies to the Canucks...Most of them are fluent in English.

We can probably go on to make similar statements about New Zealand and Australia (as well as R. Ireland).

The problem with other countries, such as Singapore, S. Africa and India, is that a significant (millions) but minority portion of the populations speak English fluently, another part gets by on English that is poor/substandard/broken or pidgin, and the rest don't really use English at all.
I have, in years of dealing with Indians in Indonesia, never met one who was even conversationally fluent in English, but I know they exist.
I've read that there are millions of S. Africans who use British English fluently.
Singaporeans have a high ability in English IF they focused on it in school instead of their other primary language, and especially if they were placed in EM1 (the highest "stream" of education, for those that demonstrated intellectual excellence in testing after a certain grade), but if you talk to the average Singaporean on the street, most of them have a less than pleasing grasp of English which leads, as with Indians, to communication breakdowns. Interestingly, Singaporean Indians are usually better at English than the other ethnic groups I've encountered on numerous visits.

In the cases of all three countries, there is a strong chance that a teacher hired from one of these countries will probably not be able to properly teach the language. The same holds true for Philippinos. There are probably many non-UK Europeans who are fluent, but...

The problem boils down to this (except for R.I., I think): How does a government give preference to a minority that can use English correctly (even though there are plenty of native speakers from the "5" countries who are unable to correctly use the language)? This would cause a lot of red tape and a whole new bureau of "English Language Testing" would have to be set up to handle the paperwork. Can you imagine that? Indonesians who haven't a firm grasp of the language overseeing testing or certification? Even if the testing was done by an outside company, like ETS (TOEFL) or the IELTS company, I wouldn't fancy trusting my chances of working in this country to a bunch of greedy desk jockeys with no ability in English.

Then we come to the issue of color. Sadly, Indonesia has its own set of prejudices, which I won't go into here, and blacks are not exempt from it. It may, or may not, affect their desire to consider populations of native speakers living in non-native speaker countries.

Is it impossible for these things to change? I disagree that it's impossible. Look what affirmative action groups have done for us "job-stealing" foreigners! Our kids now automatically become Indonesians. We still can't get loans or own property, nor can our spouses but, hey, it's a step in the right direction.

Don't give up on the idea of things getting better - because then they won't. All the "NOs" of the past don't mean anything now. Smile

-D
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dharma86



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 187
Location: Southside baby!

PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if your born in "Northern Ireland" and have an Irish passport?
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malu



Joined: 22 Apr 2007
Posts: 1344
Location: Sunny Java

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's the passport that counts.
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