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spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

get that you're not going to be running thru grammar tables and such, but the purpose is to have them speak proper english, so i'd imagine there would be points where you stop to explain how the adverb relates to an adjective or something technical like that, especially if you can speak the student's native language.

There's nothing awkward about a grammatical explanation in a public place. It's not like doing some kind of pronunciation drills or something. Highlighting important errors can definitely be done in a way that fits in to a range of normal conversation.

just that the ceiling of knowledge is relatively low compared to a lot of other professions.

A misconception. The technicalities of the target language do not form the majority of what it takes to teach language well.
From the viewpoint of a career language teacher. This is one of the things that frustrates me about teacher training, and about those job candidates with lower-end quals I have to screen.

johnslat · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject:

Dear Hot2GlobeTrot,

"What i'm saying is that there's only so much to learn in a language that there's no reason someone who's really bright couldn't learn all the technical stuff in a relatively short time. Doesnt mean he'll necessarily be as good a teacher, or be able to impart what he learns, just that the ceiling of knowledge is relatively low compared to a lot of other professions."

I'm sorry - I totally disagree with your main premise here. In fact, I'd put it this way:

What I'm saying is that there's so much to learn about a language that even someone who's really bright could spend a lifetime learning about it and still not master all of it.
There is no ceiling of knowledge in language learning.

Regards,
John

Hot2GlobeTrot · Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 82 Location: Calgary, Canada

Hot2GlobeTrot · Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 82 Location: Calgary, Canada

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

You cant say that there's as much to learn about the English language as there is the human body for a doctor, or quantum physics, or the law for a lawyer, or whatever engineers do etc etc

Yes, I can. NOTHING is more complex than language, which is tied up with the very ways we think. The way different languages reflect thought patterns is an enormous field in itself, not to mention the study of cultural differences in many different contexts and how they affect communication on every level - wording, intonation, body language, etc, etc.

You seem to think it's all about grammar, and presumably vocabulary. Not true. It's as much about what's appropriate in a myriad of different communicative contexts. Spoken English is different from written English. Speaking to a native English speaker is different from talking to non-natives in English. Different registers are appropriate depending on who is speaking/writing and to whom.

How to convey and practice all this complexity appropriately to different kinds of students with different motivation and needs to use the language is a separate field in its own right.

I realise that you're not going to be a career teacher. You'll be one in a long line of teachers for any one given speaker. You'll be a small component in the much larger machine that is each student's learning experience. That's fine - but you can't purport, from this VERY limited perspective, to have a clear view of the vastness that is language.

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject:

Oh dear. Not the old easy/difficult language chestnut again. No linguist these days takes the idea of an easy or more difficult language seriously. I don't know what you have read that suggests that only a year is needed to be proficient enough in English to take a university course, no matter which subject that course is in, but I'd suggest reading further.

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I don't know what you have read that suggests that only a year is needed to be proficient enough in English to take a university course,

I teach at a university in Europe where 99% of our students are non-native English speakers, and 99% of courses are taught in English.

One year? Laughing

Just to clarify: I'm in agreement with Sashadroogie. Read further in the field.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

'The easiest languages' are those that are closest to the speakers native language. So for a Spaniard Portuguese is a lot easier than Hindi, and Hindi a lot easier than Chinese.

mozzar · Joined: 16 May 2009 Posts: 339 Location: France

Hot2GlobeTrot · Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 82 Location: Calgary, Canada

Hot2GlobeTrot · Joined: 01 Sep 2009 Posts: 82 Location: Calgary, Canada

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I presume you're laughing at the ideal that one year could be adequate. The problem is that there is no agreement about what is the correct level of English to follow university courses in English, and the level has been declining from the old days when it was considered you couldn't follow university courses in English unless you were at proficiency level

Yes, I realise there isn't total agreement about what level of proficiency one needs to study successfully. Here, it's technically a solid CEF B2, most Canadian universities require Benchmark 8. However, what exactly does that mean? What tests can accurately say that a student will be successful or not?

I'm laughing because I work every day with Dutch, German, Italian, Spanish, and other students who have studied English for years and yet struggle in their studies in English to some degree - many seriously. All have tested at the required B2 level - and presumably know at least mozzar's standard of 10,000 words - just probably not the exact 10,000 the really need:)

santi84 · Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: under da sea

The ceiling of knowledge in language learning is low?

Have you ever studied a language beyond the intermediate level?

Do you have experience teaching English or any other language?

Sashadroogie · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject:

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Sashadroogie, thanks for having the patience and knowledge to express the complexities much more lucidly than I was able to.
I'd just like to add one comment.

While writing is certainly the most challenging element for most students, speaking in appropriate academic and professional registers, and use of a standard range of organisation and signalling language specific to a field, particularly in international contexts, is also challenging at this level.

My Dutch students, who can rightfully say that they are fluent in English, still flounder when they must speak or write in high-level academic and professional contexts.