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| I believe dating students is... |
| GREAT! It's why I became a teacher! |
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8% |
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| Okay under some circumstances, but you have to be careful. |
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60% |
[ 15 ] |
| Immoral at best, illegal at worst. |
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32% |
[ 8 ] |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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jonniboy
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 751
Location: Panama City, Panama
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 Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| spiral78 wrote: |
Interesting. Well, I have lived and worked in university towns, so maybe the libraries are open later...anyway I've always found quite cafes or restaurants around as well.
Maybe it's a gender issue: DO MALE TEACHERS FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE HAVING STUDENTS COME TO THEIR HOME? |
Here in Latvia it's the done thing for teachers of either gender to meet privates in their homes. It cuts down on travel time and saves the money that would otherwise be spent in the cafes. From my point of view I live in the centre so it's very convenient for students to come here, it saves me approx 350 euros a month that my friend pays to rent an office and if any unexpected question comes up I have all my materials and scanner/photocopier at hand. |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
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| well, just to prove a point one way or the other, i'm going to waste some money next year at the Sorbonne, and take a university course lectured in french in the spring semester 2011, after having about a year of in class, university level learning and 6 months or so of in country immersion...I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. |
Hey, I hope it works out for you. And maybe it will. Some lucky people are linguistically gifted that way. It's just that I'm not, and nor is the vast majority of the world's population. Thank goodness, or we'd all be out of work!
However, I'd be very concerned about how much written work would be expected of me, were I going to attend a course as you are, whatever course that may be. As I'm sure Spiral will agree, it is written language that usually foils most language learners at Uni. Swedes, for example, for all their impressive near-native level oral English, have serious problems with spelling and written syntax. Paragraphing seems to be a deep mystery. Tone, register - these sensitive areas give them serious trouble when they need to present a formal, academic text. Again, I think Spiral will concur, that Dutch/Flemish speakers experience similar difficulties. Again, superb oral skills, but they display a distinct dip when writing. And these are learners with far, far in excess of a meagre 10,000 base word lexicon. It's one thing to 'know' a word: it's another to know how to use it. These are competencies that are, to the best of my knowledge, important in every literate cultural context, and take a lot longer than just a year or two to get to grips with, starting from zero.
Even if you manage your course without any trouble, do not fall into the trap of thinking that every learner could. After having marked about 5 or 6 thousand Academic IELTS scripts, I am fairly sure they can't. |
I actually decided what i'm going to try-beginners Arabic taught in French. |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| santi84 wrote: |
The ceiling of knowledge in language learning is low?
Have you ever studied a language beyond the intermediate level?
Do you have experience teaching English or any other language? |
the ceiling of what there is to learn in a language is relatively low...compared to what i listed-physics, law, the body etc etc. I get there are subtleties and syntax and so on and on...what i'm saying is that which one would learn from a book, is relatively limited.
granted i'm at intermediate level. My italian prof told me that what we covered in year one was all the grammar and rules and conjugations etc that there were. Successive years were making it second nature, expanding beyond simplicity and so forth.
so at least for Italian (in Russian we went through 1/3 the book, i finished it over summer) it took us one year (120 class hours) to learn all the rules. Of course that doesnt mean I'm at the level of taking lectures in Italian, just that there's nothing new (grammatically) to learn, based on what i was told.
Plus, a Russian girl in my italian class, 20 years old, moved here three years ago, took no language classes, learned english from watching movies (trust me, she wasnt the brightest girl i've ever met) and was taking english university level classes. Had she taken English in school over there? Maybe, probably. Do HS language classes give one anywhere near the ability to take uni courses in that language? I honestly dont know... But when i read linguists saying it can't be done, the only example (non-exceptional) i've ever had says it can.
further, the above post about writing and whatnot by Swedes in English...who cares about that? Why does anyone beyond a linguist need that level? If you're going to become a writer would it not be in your native language? I'd imagine most people learn a language to become orally proficient to work in other countries, not to write the next great novel in that language. Dont a majority of foreign students come to Western (English speaking) universities for sciences and engineering, not necessarily writing intensive majors? I could very well be wrong, but my anecdotal evidence is that this is true... |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Academic and professional writing are required to complete university courses. 30 percent of our students lose their places in the faculty of Economics in first and second years because they can't write appropriately in English.
Anyway, you clearly know all you need to, so I'm sure you'll succeed both as a university student and as an English language teacher.
Enjoy, and luck to you |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| further, the above post about writing and whatnot by Swedes in English...who cares about that? Why does anyone beyond a linguist need that level? |
Trust me, a professor who has to struggle through poorly worded theses will care. He'll care enough to seriously mark down any student who cannot express his thoughts coherently, even in science or engineering. What else can he do when faced with incomprehensible gobblydegook? You have been to university, haven't you? This is important for anyone at uni, not just linguists or great writers.
You may have finished a Russian book ( which one?) in 120 hours or whatever, but I assure you, you don't 'know' all the rules, and you almost certainly wouldn't be capable of getting a degree in any subject in Russia. For a start, you'd have to get a Russian language cert to qualify for a place, which involves....writing! The Cyrillic alphabet is the easy part of that.
BTW, a lot Russians I know also claim not to have consciously learnt English, except for subtitles on DVDs. They say, they don't need to because English is 'a easy languages, not as our Rrrussian tongue', or 'English no has grammatica'. Don't be taken in - they all study their backsides off, and they get results, for the most part. But that's after they refrain from making the common mistake of confusing recognition of grammatical forms with having nothing new to learn.
Good luck with the Arabic through French class. The Koran in 12 months?  |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008
Posts: 1317
Location: under da sea
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Hot2GlobeTrot wrote: |
| I could very well be wrong, but my anecdotal evidence is that this is true... |
Anecdotal evidence from actually teaching ESL/EFL? You've said a lot of things on here about language learning and teaching, but a lot of it reinforces that you don't have much education or experience in SLA.
Try researching SLA and see how that compares to your evidence (you'll also find that SLA research is primarily in English, often by researchers with English as their second language. Another reminder that academic-level English is required for most publications beyond the undergraduate level). |
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naturegirl321
Joined: 04 May 2003
Posts: 9041
Location: home sweet home
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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I don't date students. My husband wouldn't approve.  But kidding aside, I wouldn't. there's too much at risk. LIke them using you for grades, bettering their English, etc. Besides that, you shouldn't mix business with pleasure. |
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Hot2GlobeTrot
Joined: 01 Sep 2009
Posts: 82
Location: Calgary, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| Sashadroogie wrote: |
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| further, the above post about writing and whatnot by Swedes in English...who cares about that? Why does anyone beyond a linguist need that level? |
Trust me, a professor who has to struggle through poorly worded theses will care. He'll care enough to seriously mark down any student who cannot express his thoughts coherently, even in science or engineering. What else can he do when faced with incomprehensible gobblydegook? You have been to university, haven't you? This is important for anyone at uni, not just linguists or great writers.
You may have finished a Russian book ( which one?) in 120 hours or whatever, but I assure you, you don't 'know' all the rules, and you almost certainly wouldn't be capable of getting a degree in any subject in Russia. For a start, you'd have to get a Russian language cert to qualify for a place, which involves....writing! The Cyrillic alphabet is the easy part of that.
BTW, a lot Russians I know also claim not to have consciously learnt English, except for subtitles on DVDs. They say, they don't need to because English is 'a easy languages, not as our Rrrussian tongue', or 'English no has grammatica'. Don't be taken in - they all study their backsides off, and they get results, for the most part. But that's after they refrain from making the common mistake of confusing recognition of grammatical forms with having nothing new to learn.
Good luck with the Arabic through French class. The Koran in 12 months? |
but if a swediesh student really wants to become an engineer or whatever, arent there plenty of places he could do that in Sweden? Why does he need perfect english? Never having been in science courses, i dont know to what level writing is a factor, but at my uni there are plenty of chinese kids attending and they're presumably at least in maths and engineering and they sure dont speak flawless english, so they must get by somehow.
In my graduate poli sci classes there was a Columbian girl who spoke english but not flawlessly. In class discussions she clearly had trouble expressing things as smoothly and concisely as native speakers. But for the points she argued, she made good arguments, non-flawless languages aside. Presumably her writing was at the same level, and this class was marked entirely on our writing. Prof had no trouble from what i saw allowing her in this high level seminar course, and i assume there was some kind of understanding between them about comfort with the language.
I'd say there's a difference between having learned all the rules and knowing all the rules. I've learned them so am familiar with it as the complexity grows. I said for Italian, much easier than Russian, I wouldnt be able to do classes yet, so of course i couldnt with russian. And i'll get that cert at MGU...
as far as Arabic goes, my expectation is the alphabet and ability to read and write on a basic level before i go to Cairo. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Oh dear, there really isn't much hope here. Fine, go on your travels. Find out for yourself. I'll meet you in Moscow and we'll see how many of your assumptions haved held true. But I'll wager that such innocence abroad will be very shortlived.
Доброго пути, xa xa! |
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riverboat
Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 117
Location: Paris, France
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: |
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Got to say Hot2GlobeTrot, like Sashadroogie I'm kind of tempted to offer to meet up with you here in Paris (since I know it's one of your stops) after you've been learning/teaching for a while, because it would be so fascinating to see how many of your assumptions have held true!
For what it's worth:
As a language learner, I studied French in school and a little at university. Eight years later, having decided I wanted to move to France, I realised that I'd lost a huge amount of what I'd learnt. I spent about nine months teaching/reteaching myself the language fairly intensively (ie I spent a couple of hours a day) through books and audio material, and I also took an evening French course. By the end of my nine months, I'd pretty much acquainted myself with all the material in the intermediate level grammar book, and was able to successfuly test myself on these rules in written exercises. I could read simple material in French (children's books, some newspaper articles) and understand the gist.
A short while later, having now spent three months in France, I'd say that probably 75 - 80% of the French I hear (from people in social situations, from students at work, on the TV, snippets of conversations in shops/on the street) goes right over my head. I subsist by working my ass off to wring all the meaning I can out of the 20 - 25% I hear that I do understand. In terms of being able to speak, no problems in shops/restaurants/simple social transactions, but I'm ridiculously far away from being able to converse properly in a normal social situation. I went to a dinner party the other day where everyone was French-speaking, and I was about seven leagues out of my comfort zone. I felt exhausted after 20 minutes of trying to keep up (which, by the way, I couldn't).
Basically, "knowing" a language in theory, and then actually understanding/speaking that language competently in the target country, in a world of native speakers...those two things are oceans apart.
Now if I was actually spending my time properly immersed in the French language here, maybe I'd progress faster. But as I'm an EFL teacher, I spend all day, every day speaking English and teaching English and thinking about English. My colleagues are Anglophones, and by extension most of my friends here are Anglophones. Yeah I try to keep up with my self-study, and I make an effort to meet up with my French friends as much as possible, to read French newspapers etc, but there's no way I'd consider myself as being immersed in the French language. And that means I've got an even steeper hill to climb in terms of getting to the level I'd like to in French. You just have to accept these things and keep plodding on. |
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Sashadroogie
Joined: 17 Apr 2007
Posts: 11061
Location: Moskva, The Workers' Paradise
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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When I was an precocious adolescent I picked up a beat up old acoustic guitar and figured out how to strum a few popular numbers - heck, like I was ringing a bell. I also was a dab hand at picking out the chords of my favourite tunes on the piano. We had three pianos in my house because my mother was a professional musician and teacher, as was her father before her, so access to instruments was easy for me. In fact you could say that I imbibed more musicality than most people ever do simply because my upbringing was totally immersed in it, and like and stuff. And I read a few books or two on theory. Pretty limited area of knowledge really - what's to know except a few mathematical concepts such as counting, a bit of harmonics, and that funny script that serious music is written in. I mean it ain't rocket science, you know? Like rocket science is.
So, I have decided that I am going to enrol in the Moscow Conservatoire and be a full-time concert pianist. I am doing at least 20 new scales practices a week, so I reckon I'll be ready for my debut in October 2010 on the Moscow recital circuit. Watch out Russia! Watch out music world!
However, I'm looking for another foreigner to introduce me on stage to the audience, but in Russian... To show them all how easy it all is. Anyone interested? Anyone hot to trot? |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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SueH
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 1022
Location: Northern Italy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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..joined on the concert platform with Sue and her recently purchased flute: 15 quid from a mate of mine in the UK, and I am practising quite a bit..
Somewhere in my notes I have a list of the number of hours of study to get to the various European levels, and the hours are significant figures. I know Italians think a few lessons a week before an exam will help, but I didn't realise this was such a widespread attitude!
As for riverboat - I concur: I've been here 3 years and my colleagues and friends are pretty well all Italian, but there are times in conversation where I just pack up, have time out to recover, and then get back to the fray. It's actually a useful and salutary experience for a language teacher as it reminds us of the difficulties of language learning.
Anyway, feeling guilty and I'm off to practise my flute ... really! |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The problem with writing skills for (many) foreign language students is as simple as this: They can't write in their own language!!!. Otherwise, I believe that if you can read and speak in a foreign language, you can write in it. |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Oooops! Haven't we wandered off the thread?  |
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