Job Discussion Forums

[chinatwin88]

If they were serious about accreditation they would require transcripts so it would be my guess that this is about a totally different problem relating to the use of the diploma copy as proof or it is a great way to build a bank of different degrees to use in paperwork at a later date.

[chengdude]

I posted this in response to another question a few weeks ago:

[Jayray]

In the U.S., these outfits [see below] have databases to whom schools and other institutions have turned over their records. Universities and other institutions don't want to spend the money on providing this service because it would (in many cases) require them to set up whole new departments. All that the verification services provide is data pertaining to graduation and award of degree. It requires a simple email response.

These outfits are themselves accredited in a way which is similar to the way in which credit reporting agencies are accredited/recognized by industry.

www.degreechk.com

www.wes.org/ (international)

www.studentclearinghouse.org/dvev/default.htm

All that a recruiter/consulate/FAO would have to do is to require the applicant to pay (by credit or debit card) the proper verification service to email the prospective employer with the information. It is MUCH faster than procuring transcripts from a school. I almost lost my job in the States over transcripts that required five emails and several telephone calls to a university requesting transcripts. Eventually, I had to call the dean to get the registrar's office to get a move on.

But yeah, I'm in favor of bona fide verification of degree. It's more than a little irritating to work with people who are making 30% more money than I am, working fewer hours than I am, and being allowed to misinform and mismanage their classes because they have a Ph.D degree in education from Belford University of Life's Experiences or a Ph.D degree in Sino-European Relations (whatever that is) from Universit�t der Ged�mpften Kaninchen.

I worked with someone who had NO IDEA who Confucius (aka Kong zi, aka K'ung-tzu, aka Kong Fuzi) was. None of the names registered. This person was also purported to be able to read Chinese. This teacher once interpreted a sign for me as saying "Dangerous Water." Two of my students translated the same sign as saying "Quiet Zone." Huh?

I realize that if such a verification program were to be enacted, some very good teachers might be excluded from teaching in China. I've known college freshman English majors who could teach as well as (sometimes better than) bona fide PhDs. Anyone who has taught for awhile has probably realized that there are folks who can and do teach English (and other subjects) quite well without credentials.

The reality is that the good sometimes suffer for the bad. I envy those who have never had to ask himself how in heaven's name one of his foreign colleagues managed to get a position as a teacher in China and (worse) managed to keep it. I worked with a guy who taught his class the Army jingle

This is my rifle.
This is my gun.
This one's for fighting.
This one's for fun.

He was teaching ten year-olds.

[The Ever-changing Cleric]

[Jayray]

This was in 2004, and by the time I jumped through all of the hoops prescribed by the website for the consulate in Washington, D.C., I found out that it wasn't necessary.

I had not yet contacted a school or recruiter, so I didn't know that that whole process wasn't even required. The recruiters are better informed than the consulate is.

By that time, China had signed the Dayton Accord and the Hague Agreement which made all of that stuff necessary. But yes, I have letters of authentication from the U.S. State Department which are grommeted to my degrees. Accompanying all that is a letter of authentication from the Chinese consulate. (All that the letter is is a pretty piece of rice paper with red chops on it and a signature of someone who has an Anglo first and last name.

[dakelei]

I submitted my original degree to a "school" in Heilongjiang and haven't seen it since. (This was back in May, 2006. The school was called Ruyi in a city called Jiagedaqi.) When I told my story I was widely derided and sneered at by other posters at ESL sites. More than a few implied (or outright said) I was lying and was only trying to manufacture an excuse for not having a "real" degree. Another school, in Shenzhen this time, required an original degree and it was a bit of a hassle getting a duplicate but I eventually did. If you are asked to submit an original do NOT fear you are being paranoid by demanding receipts and/or other proof you have submitted it. And stay on them until you get it back. Be relentless and don't worry if you appear "rude." You paid thousands for that degree and you have the right to be vigilant. This is the first time I've mentioned this incident for quite a while but it still annoys the hell out of me every time I think about it.

[Sinobear]

Jayray: why should the applicant pay? A background check is always the onus of the checker, not the checkee ( I just made up those words!).

Bottom line is, most schools don't give a toss about qualifications. You're white, can walk upright (most of the time) and your monosyllabic vocabulay range is right on par with college administration. you're good to go.

Going through all the hoops and hurdles to authenticate your degree is using your scrap of paper as a shield..."Look at me! I have a PhD and I'm being paid less than a high school dropout! But at least I can prove that I'm more qualified and...uh...oh never mind."

Proof of teaching ability talks, BS (or BA, BSC. MA. MEd, PhD) squawks.

Do Enjoy!

[Jayray]

In 2004, those were the posted procedures on the Washington, D.C. Chinese Consulate's website. I didn't know about the somewhat fluid Chinese interpretation of their own laws and regulations then.

I disagree that authentication of credentials is a mere shield. Authentication is what it says it is: it a process of verifying the "realness" of one's credentials. Granted, none of the process guarantees anything, but requiring someone to jump through hoops with two governments at minimal cost would discourage some of the folks I've encountered in China from ever applying for a job, especially the guy who was obsessed with the rights of ped*philes in America.

Just a cursory Wikipedia of "Diploma Mills" provides the names of dozens of diploma mills such as "The University of Metaphysics". In my own country, The Department of State has a database of diploma mills, accredited colleges and universities, non-accredited (but operational) colleges and universities, as well as those whose address is a post office box. (That's one place where Americans' tax dollars go).

The ability to screen the teacher applicant in SOME way before he arrives in China would be a giant step forward. Granted, (as I have said before) a college degree does not make the teacher. I have seen first year college freshmen teach circles around some tenured faculty. Possession of a bona fide degree assures the employer that the hiree has, at least, a sense of decorum, some sense of proper behavior in class.

I am sure that I am not the only one who has worked beside teachers who, by their own admission, were living on the streets before they arrived in China. I am sure that I am not the only one who has learned that his fellow FT has a criminal record back home.

"Proof of teaching ability talks, BS (or BA, BSC. MA. MEd, PhD) squawks."

But how can one "prove" that he can teach in China until he arrives in China? One can't. Granted, an authenticated degree is not proof of suitability for any class room, nor is it irrefutable proof that one can teach, nor is it necessarily proof that one is educated. It is, however, a qualification.Some sort of authentication process will thwart at least SOME of those who do not belong in the class room from even applying. That's a good thing, wouldn't you say?

"...why should the applicant pay? A background check is always the onus of the checker, not the checkee...?"

Why NOT? The applicant paid for his own education , did he not? What's another five dollars to shell out to ask DegreeVerify to send a letter to the school that has accepted the applicant, pending verification? Before I accepted any position at a college in the States, I had to pay my Alma Mater to send transcripts directly to my new school after I was interviewed and accepted for employment. This is not such an unusual employment requirement in western academia.

Yeah, yeah, white face, native speaker, etc., etc..The Chinese government will never take any corrective measures in the hiring of foreign experts, etc., etc., so why bother?

All I can say is that if you haven't encountered any wackos during your stay in China, you have been fortunate. If you have, and they haven't caused some sort of discomfort or trouble for you and others around him, I admire that too.

[cmknight]

The only reason Chinese authorities require "genuine" degrees is because they have no agreements with foreign countries, such as Britain, Canada and the United States, to be able to authenticate whether or not you actually went to university. There is no exchange of information treaty between China and these countries.

I would urge people coming to this country to submit scanned copies, NOT the originals. One person I know submitted his originals, got screwed around, and the recruiter in question (Helen China TEFL) refused to give his original degrees back to him before he left. As far as they were concerned, because he didn't do everything they ordered him to do, he was a troublemaker. so they decided to "punish" him by keeping his original degrees. Things he refused to do included finishing his work in one city and then going to another city for a two hour class (the other city was 6 hours away, and he wasn't being reimbursed for travel time), and working on his contractual "days off".

With original documentation ... be extremely careful. You can show it to them, but give them a scanned copy. Same thing with the PSB. As long as they SEE the original, a scanned copy should suffice.

[Jayray]