Job Discussion Forums

[chegs]

In an open arena for debate, there should be provided an opportunity for people to see both sides.

If it's OK for people to name schools as sources of harrasment, misery, slave-like entrapment etc. shouldn't there also be a provision for schools to name teachers who have stepped over the line?

Just a thought.

[Burl Ives]

Do teachers have the same access to retribution?

[chegs]

Naturally! Isn't that what fair and open debate is all about?

But hang on, isn't that what's already happening? and why I asked the question in the first place.

[Burl Ives]

[chegs]

So, the frequent "outing" of rogue schools is OK, but God forbid a rogue teacher gets his/her come-uppance.

One thing I think all of us should bear in mind is the value that is placed on us here in China. Really, think about it. We are paid 3-4 times the salary of Chinese professors who are experts in their field and have often dedicated their lives to their vocation but none the less are privy to none of the advantages of Foreign "Experts" (a white face and a 3rd class degree in Sociology will qualify you). Any native English speaker, CELTA/TESOL trained or not, is immediately propelled into the echelons of the priviliged upper-middle classes, treated as demi-gods by their students, gains access to places here they wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance of getting into back home, flown here free, housed free etc. etc. Back home in the US, UK, Aus, NZ wherever, they'd likely be taking calls at a call centre or possibly worse.

I read a lot of gripes on here, some justified, some maybe not so. Perhaps some of the people who contribute to these forums have lost sight of who they really are and should consider these facts.

[Burl Ives]

Sooooooo, "chegs", first time in China, is it? Are you in China?

To begin with, rogue teachers in civilised countries don't get outed, they get bad references and little chance of finding a new job because, hold on to your hat, schools check.

Second, you seem to have bought the party line about salaries. At my present school, first-time teachers straight out of Teachers' College make maybe 1/8 to 1/4 what I make. But they make that only if they never, ever teach a class. Class money moves their salary up to something more than 1/4 what I make. Festival money, the bonuses paid at festivals, of which there is something like one a month, bumps it up higher to maybe 1/3. Their basic salary and class money rises with each year of continuing service. Crying poor is such a blatant lying fact of the Chinese workplace that it is a lesson in itself.

Teach well. All the rest is noise.

[struelle]

[Taishan]

Chegs, what you are saying is basically true, but you are somewhat journalistic in your analysis, giving only one side of the story.
As far as I'm aware, Chinese teachers do fairly well, but not great. This is not a leadership conspiracy though, it is the economics of the Chinese labour market. Workers are easily replaceable, if FT's were so easily replaceable our salaries would be similar. The Chinese teachers I know in this medium-sized city make about Y1000 a month for a standard wage, then there's a free apartment, a monthly bonus, holiday pay, New Year treats etc etc. A married Chinese couple can therefore earn Y3000 or so a month between them, I'd call that fairly comfortable, considering the costs.
I do feel that some FT's do really complain a little too much. I used to get by almost comfortably, without any hope of being able to afford my own housing in my home country working 50-60 hours a week. In China I can live comfortably from only about 20 hours work including lesson planning. The only problem is going back to our home countries, with what is locally a very small amount of money. I just wonder how many of the FT's here have had a job for more than 2 years in their home country, and whether they have a fully developed perspective of work environments.

[chegs]

So - I'm wrong in assuming that Chinese teachers fare worse than us? Come on, guys, get a grip.

I have frequent contact with Chinese teachers, some from Middle or High schools, some are lecturers at Universities here. They are the source of my insistence that they do indeed earn 1/3 - 1/4 of what we do typically. They also often pay for their own housing and have a spouse and child to provide for too. If you want it in writing, I'll see what I can do! (Did I mention the after school classes they are forced to do?)

As for the "laowai effect". Mmmm, here at least it doesn't seem to have diminished greatly. I was recently followed around a supermarket for 20mins by gaping mouthed, incredulous locals. Perhaps in Beijing/ Shanghai / Guangzhou the effect has lessened. But then again, I personally wouldn't want to live in a huge metropolis and opted for the tiny backwater of Fuzhou (pop. 5,850,000!).

But back to the point. Why shouldn't a school name and shame an individual who has crossed the line of what is acceptable professionally. You all know how desperate for teachers they are out here, right? You've probably all met the opportunistic college drop-outs with no formal training or experience earning more than Chinese teachers by far. You've all probably had gripes with your employers here. Me too. You can't spend three years here without at least a few dozen of 'em popping up. So, why is it OK for schools to be frequently named in these forums, exposed to vitriol and negative criticism, but obversely, why is it unacceptable for a school to "out" a rogue employee.

When I hear an acceptable, logical reason, I'l drop the matter. Honest!

[Burl Ives]

You don't need an acceptable, logical reason. You work for a private school and you're flexing your muscles.

[Roger]

Chegs,
are you simply trying to get a rise out of us?
I do agree that we need to weed out the chaff that has accumulated here. But I don't see us as the reason why so many slackers are allowed to enter this labour market in the first place. The reason is that China's English teaching scene is utterly amateurish and backward, not to mention parochial and nationalistic.
If there wasn't such an idiotic divide between FT doing "conversation classes" - whatever that means, and whatever that is supposed to achieve!!! - and local teachers doing the "substantial" part of the job then we would have fewer backpackers and China's teachers would have to be up to scratch too.
As I see it, their teachers are not capable of teaching, and we are here to do remedial work. I hate this as i want to do an honest job, and that means I would love to teach what really matters.
If you talk to Chinese teachers and principals you quickly find out they don't take our language seriously because they never use it among themselves, nor with their own students. This is a shame. If they find it beneath their dignity to utter whole sentences in English, giving instructions, explaining grammar and informing students of administrative decisions in English I wonder what kind of role model they are giving to their students; a bad one in my opinion! Don't lecture me they can't be blamed for lacking self-confidence - that's part and parcel of a teacher's job.
Now for your erroneous salary comparisons: You have fallen for blunt lies or disinformatsiya if you actually believe university professors only make a fraction of a foreign teacher's salary. Have you compared the profs' income with that of a FT at the same university??? Maybe not! In my uni, we all get the same pay. FT have but one advantage, and that is that our housing is somewhat more luxurious and it is free of charge, while our local colleagues pay a token rental (I heard something like on kuai per square meter a month, that is around 80 RMB for a 2-bedroom flat).
BUT, but we only get paid during ten months, while our Chinese colleagues are on the payroll for twelve months every year.
I also know pertinently that Chinese teachers are invited on holiday trips abroad for free or heavily subsidised by their employer. I benefited one only time in now ten years from such an offer, and the effect was that my colleagues were rather jealous after the trip.
Those foreigners who do make several times the salary of local teachers work for PRIVATE outfits, and the decision to remunerate them more generously has nothing to do with preferential treatment but with marketing. Working for private businesses is not always a piece of cake, as you no doubt know!
Please, I respect your opinion on some of us, an opinion that is not flattering but probably well-founded; nevertheless your suggestion is over the top. Maybe Dave should run a separate forum or another Information board analogous to the Job Info one, in which schools could name their foreign bogeymen - if they can substantiate their claims!

[Lanza-Armonia]

Quite simple really. If a teacher is bad and gets the boot, references and CVs can show red flags, therefore employers with half a functioning brain cell can figure out whom to hire.

But

If a school fecks up, what are we to do in Commie China. I am doing what I can by building a website on China and then a blacklist. Although, not online yet (as my provider is playing games at the mo), it has an extensive list of school, of which, more can be added. Hopefully, this will help at least someone..... Do I here a second for this motion?

[nik_knack0828]

Well, I don't really want to disagree with anyone, as I'm new to the ESL game and I have certainly not been here for 10 years.
But I feel I have to back up the claim about the money situation.
I am currently teaching in a Vocational college. I'm pretty sure it's a government school and I am making 4000 yuan a month. I live in a small town and that's resonably good money for the area. The other teachers in my school, the chinese ones, only make 1000 yuan a month. Some make up to 1500, if they've been working there for years and years and have accepted extra work. I realise that bonuses and whatnot bring their incomes up, but I don't think it's enough to bring them up to my level.
For instance, my friend Mary (or Mrs. Ma) is forty years old. She has worked at the college her entire adult life. She curently earns about 1500 yuan teaching and working as the vice-dean of the english department. Her husband is a civil servant who makes about 1500 yuan a month. This brings their combined income up to 3000 (aprox.). They have one sixteen year old daughter. They have free housing from Mary's husband's job.
I make, alone, 4000 yuan a month and have free housing. If I had a husband/boyfriend making the same we would have a combined total of 8000 compared to Mary's 3000. I think that's a pretty substantial difference.
About 1/4-1/3 seems like an accurate estimation of pay difference.
I hope no one is angry over my views on the pay difference. I'm just talking about the situation in my school. I don't know about any other schools or towns.

[Burl Ives]

Salary, the real deal: salary is paid by the government and it is called basic salary. When Chinese quote their low salaries, they are quoting basic salary. Basic salary at my school for a first-time teacher is about 700 yuan a month. FTs get 4000.

Next, payments for actually teaching: for a first-time teacher, something from 20 to 40 yuan per period, for something from 20 to 40 periods a week. (Which puts the 50yuan per class overtime the FTs get into perspective.)

Next, bonuses: who knows, depends on the school and the time of year, sometimes 100, sometimes 2000.

Next, thirteen months of salary a year: for them, not me.

Once, on the east coast, I was making 5000 a month at one of the bigger schools in town. A genuinely first-time teacher at the least respected tertiary institution in town was hitting around 3000 a month. That teacher, thinking about her future, once observed that a decent professor should be looking at 100,000 a year.

Have you numbnuts never been to a hospital? Have you not observed that you may consult a regular doctor for maybe 5 yuan a pop or you may consult with the expert, a professor usually, for 50 yuan a pop? Yes, I'm sure too that they only do that in hospitals. I can't imagine the good, long-suffering teacher would ever have thought of a similar idea. And yes, medical professors' basic salary is low too.

The most famous disappearer, the guy who used to be chairman of one of the big four banks, and vice prez of one of the others, he was disappeared around the turn of 2002-3 and it made international news because of his celebrity status in the international monied circles. His basic salary was about 1000 a month.

[nik_knack0828]

Don't call me numbnuts.
It's not very nice.
I was just trying to tell you what I had observed and have been told by my Chinese friends.
No need to get rude.



But I do like your avator, though it's no excuse to be insulting.