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themanymoonsofjupiter · Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 205 Location: The Big Link

excuse me for getting all teacher here, but i have been trying to explain to students that they cannot use "have a try" every time they want someone to do something. however, i have no idea how to explain how it sometimes can be used. does anyone have any definitions or examples which would make my point clearer?

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

I may be wrong ... but I think that grammatically ... there is nothing wrong with that sentence. It just looks wrong to us, because it isnt a pattern of common usage with native speakers.

We would normally just say 'Ill try it' and ignore the 'have'. Grammatically, I think its fine though, its just not a common collocate for native speakers.

'Try' is normally used as a verb of course ... 'to try something', but it is also a noun, 'I will have a try at something'.

Both are correct. The former is just far more common.

Personally ... I would just suggest that whilst it is grammatically correct, it is nor commonly used in speech. Its worth students knowing that the grammar of speech and writing are different.

alter ego · Joined: 24 Mar 2009 Posts: 209

Why not write some sample alternate sentences on the board and have the students practice them?

Teacher, have a try.
Teacher, why not have a try?
Teacher, try this/that.
Teacher, please try.
Teacher, why don't you give it a try?
Teacher, would you like to try?
Teacher, give it a try.
Teacher, why not give it a try?
Teacher, can you have a try?
Teacher, can you give it a try?
Teacher, can you try?
Teacher, you try.

Model the sentences for them and maybe they'll pick up a new way to say it. I wouldn't tell students that they "cannot" say it, because they can. Perhaps shouldn't or mustn't, but that would be getting all teacher again, wouldn't it?

If your students are involved enough to say "have a try" I wouldn't worry about it that much.

Jayray · Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 373 Location: Back East

It should be explained to the students that the expression is a colloquialism and is not used in formal speech or formal writing.

As long as they understand when it should and should not be used--- and HOW to use it--- there should be no problem.

norwalkesl · Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Posts: 366 Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

The original post was asking for a reason why it was wrong. That did suggest a grammatical rule that could be given to students ... I dont think there is one cos grammatically it isnt wrong.

the structure is a simple one. A future 'will' tense. Sub+will+inf verb.
(naturally, some things may be ellipted in speech though)

I will have a try.
I will eat a cake.
He may watch the television.
They could go outside.

Whilst I agree that we should teach natural idiomatically correct English ... it is important that what may be common in spoken English, may clash with prescribed rules of language. Bear in mind, that some examples of common, and natural language usage, would provide an incorrect answer on a CET examination.

The usage of 'was/were' in a conditional statement or 'if-clause' would be an example. Whilst you may say to students that it is perfectly natural to say,

'If I was fitter, I would run a marathon' - It would be a fail on a grammar test.

In the example posted originally .. 'Have a try', there is no reason why students couldnt use it all the time. grammatically, it is 100% correct. The answer for students should be that IMO, with the additional fact that it is not the only way to say it, and others, depending upon the variety of English and location of the speaker, may be more popular or common.

I think thats what I would suggest. Those more experienced than me, and better at grammar may know otherwise though Embarassed

Sinobear · Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1269 Location: Purgatory

Tell them Master Yoda says, "Do, or do not, there is no try."

Cheers!

tommchone · Joined: 27 Oct 2009 Posts: 108

When I first saw this, I was trying to think of situations where it might be incorrect, but there aren't any. It is grammatical, although it sounds a little strange to MOST native English speakers. I liken it to hearing people say "have a catch"; referring to tossing a ball back and forth. By the same token "standing ON line" has always sounded slightly odd to me, but it is perfectly correct and acceptable.

Laurence · Joined: 26 Apr 2005 Posts: 401

I think the correct structure is

______________

have a + [NOUN]
______________

which you can use to make

"have a go"

'go', being a noun here (as in "my go" / "your go", meaning "my turn" in a game or ordered activity). This, I think, is the phrase which students should be using when taking turns at classroom activities.

"have a walk"
"have a dance"
"have a talk"
"have a look"
"I had a long, hard think about it"

all follow the same structure, 'walk', 'dance' etc. are being used as nouns.

now, in

norwalkesl · Joined: 22 Oct 2009 Posts: 366 Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China

Hansen · Joined: 13 Oct 2008 Posts: 737 Location: central China

The topic of this thread is illustrates how poorly our work is understood. So what if you don't like the sound of "have a try?" Even if it is grammatically incorrect, the meaning is plain enough. The point of the communication is understood. That's what many of us are hoping for. We want to instill in our students the ability to effectively communicate.

For those "low lifes" here who are simply teaching oral English, spend some extra time, one on one, with your students. Discover just how many of them can not communicate clearly in English. They are unable to articulate their thoughts. Their pronunciation obscures their thoughts. Whatever they are saying is not understood or poorly understood.

I have plenty of students who can not make clear the difference between 13 and 30 when giving a number. That matters. Imagine their surprise when they receive only 13 for something they wanted to sell for thirty.

A big part of being an effective OE teacher is figuring out what matters. Spend your time teaching that.

tommchone · Joined: 27 Oct 2009 Posts: 108

Hansen, you are absolutely correct! Will you be understood? That is what matters. In fact, I have the students practice saying 13, 14, 15, etc. immediately followed by 30, 40. Another good one is 13th, 14th, then 30th 40th, ad nauseum.

Jayray · Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 373 Location: Back East

Can someone PLEASE send me a link to an authoritative source that defines "idiomatically correct"? I seem to have missed that in linguistics 101.

LoPresto · Joined: 27 Oct 2009 Posts: 87

I would if I could, but, since I'm just an "Oral English Teacher"/conversation facilitator, I have no clue.

nickpellatt · Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 1522

I like threads like this ... gives us a chance to practice our own (in my case limited) knowledge ... and isnt as technical as some of the OTT grammar threads I have read.

Laurence ... 'Try' can be used as a noun outside of rugby. I checked the definition with dictionary. com and they do offer 'try' as a noun with the definition and usage as 'have a try at st'

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/try