Job Discussion Forums

[TESOLROCKS]

jellybones writes,

[matesol]

[quote="jellybones"]Ignore everyone on this thread. Call the HR dept of prospective future places of employment and simply ask them if they would hire someone with MA from "x" school. I live in California, and I went through the site: www.cccregistry.org. I called every ESL position listed (which pay very well btw) and asked if they would hire someone with an MATESOL from Anaheim University (completely online school). I was shocked. They said they would in a heartbeat. Furthermore, the people who do the actually hiring didn't know the difference from regionally accredited vs nationally accredited, and they much preferred a graduate from Anaheim University to a graduate from a top Australian brick and mortar university (local bias, I guess). These two things were true for all 6 of the CC's I was able to get through to. They really didn't have any problem with online MA's.

Just to add to this, I'm a graduate of Anaheim University, have gone through a PhD program and teach at a university in an English speaking country. Before embarking on my PhD, I have found work in several locations in different parts of the world without any problems at all. Sometimes I think students put too much emphasis on which certificate/diploma to do that they end up waiting around forever to start a course. Or they take one and then do another one because they feel they need to be qualified in everything. Most schools and universities, as you say, do not know the difference btw what a regional and national accreditation is, but they do know what kind of person you are when you go for an interview and whether you've acquired the knowledge and skills to teach. It's up to the individual not your degree. And you quickly realize that where you got your degree quickly fades into the background once you get into the workforce. Your colleagues and students judge your teaching skills not your degree. And yes, you do get interviews if you have a decent resume. If they dont know about AU then they will at least call you over to see what it's all about. Anyway, my point is, a) it seems sort of ridiculous to wonder whether a degree from a completely online school will be legitimate especially if you are from the world's leading country such as the US in this Internet and media frenzy world that we live in and b) speaking from experience, if you really need online learning to work for you because of work related reasons or have a lack of time to go to a face to face school, then you need to understand and develop some ways to make the learning meaningful for you. You've got the readings, the professors and your fellow students, how you acquire knowledge is up to you. I believe in online learning and if my students need it for whatever reason, I act as a role model for them and find ways to help them with their learning because I believe people can learn through all sorts of mediums. You know, this is actually a really good line to use in interviews. Most hiring staff find this quite impressive and like having someone who knows this kind of stuff.

The main thing is to do the hard work of getting into a program and getting that degree whatever it may and then getting it to work for you. (Obviously you're not going to enroll somewhere shonky but if you believe the program is sound and it fits your lifestyle, then go for it and dont worry so much about the future. The ESL/EFL field always needs more teachers. Educators are highly in demand. And in most cases, it's about working up the ladder. Not many people get placed in high paying positions from the beginning esp if you are just a fresh graduate.)

I don't know what other states are like, but CA CC's have tons of jobs for MATESOL holders pretty much regardless of where you get the paper. Call your local community colleges and talk to the their HR dept.

I rest my case.

I've been talking classes through AU now and it isn't the greatest. You have to contribute to a forum like Dave's all the time and you don't learn much. Everyone is overly polite and don't expect much input from the big man. He's a bit like Krusty the Clown at Kamp Krusty, if ya catch my drift. Just get that MA and you can make your parents happy by telling them you won't always have to be in a hakwon/bushiban/eikaiwa and you'll be back in the USA making bank in 2.5 to 10 years (maybe 20).[/quote]

No I dont actually "catch [your] drift". It depends on what kind of learner you are. If you are a very needy learner who needs to be spoon fed everything, then perhaps you need lots of input from the professors. Why do you feel contributing to the online forum is something derogatory? I think it's a great way of learning because having done face to face classes in my PhD after my MA I realize how much gets said in class without letting it soak in my head. Everything moves much too quickly. I like the fact that I can have some time to read others' comments and think about my own and articulate things in ways that are meaningful to me and my fellow classmates. And in this process, the professors have always given me some feedback even if it's a short one to tell me if I'm on the right track or not. If you are a teacher, you know you cannot possibly be at the feet of your students all the time. Now you dont choose a school just because there are world renown professors but there is a reason for their academic success which you cannot deny if you really "know" the contributions they have made in our field. They are professionals and they will help you if you speak up. If everyone wants to be polite, that is their choice and they are creating that kind of culture in their cohort but that certainly wasn't the case in my classes. We were really engaged and amazed at how the professors were involved with the forum. It's important to remember that in face to face universities, professors/lecturers/instructors rarely see you after their two hour session.

What I'm trying to say is, you can create your own online culture. If you are a dedicated teacher, you dont just give up because there are a few glitches or things arent exactly the way you like it. You find ways to make the learning work for you in a way that helps others also. If we are to really keep up with the speed of technology, we have to move away from discourses that focus on what "the norm" is, move beyond them and question what it is we really need. If we have the resources and access then it's up to us to be creative and innovative.

[T.S. Brock]

It's good to see that applicants earning their MA in TESOL online from Anaheim University are looked upon favorably... and rightly so... I'm about to do my ninth consecutive course (and then comes the thesis)... and I must say, it's been a transformative experience. The professors (Kathleen Bailey, Ruth Wajnryb, Martha Cummings, Rod Ellis and David Nunan) not only introduce material from their own texts but also take the time to address the complexity of issues (including inter-disciplinary issues) the field of second language demands. I've had discussions and even debates with each of them during the roller coaster ride that it's been.

Responding to "jellybeans":

"I've been talking classes through AU now and it isn't the greatest. You have to contribute to a forum like Dave's all the time and you don't learn much. Everyone is overly polite and don't expect much input from the big man. He's a bit like Krusty the Clown at Kamp Krusty, if ya catch my drift."

Well... whether you be an advocate of information processing (input/output/uptake), are inclined toward the broader ecological perspective or have other ways of approaching language learning, these views are continually hashed/thrashed out in the forum with both earnest inquiry and passionate conviction. Depending on the learner--considering styles, knowledge, communication strategies, beliefs and other variables-- there may be more manifest inquiry than conviction... and this may come across as 'overly polite'... but you will, inevitably, get this state of affairs in ANY learning environment...

A second point on the 'politeness issue' is that one big difference between online and face-to-face learning is the absence of paralanguage (prosody/intonation, facial expression, eye contact, gestures and 'body language') when we use keyboards and screens (and NO webcams) to communicate. In this environment, we don't have the usual 'cues' as to when someone is converging or diverging towards or away from us and/or our argument or praise... people tend to 'play it safe' until they establish greater confidence in the various online modes (discussion forums, e-mail and chat)...

I truly recommend AU to any prospective teacher... but it's like anything else (as Ruth Wajnryb pointed out a few weeks ago: "I think the DFs (discussion forums) are a bit like life - they are what u make them be.") you take away with you pretty much equal to what you put into it...

[Symphany]

The last three posters in this thread have only had one posting to their credit each. It makes one wonder if they didn't just create a profile to promote the school that they work for.

[El Chupacabra]

[jdl]

Get a teaching degree. The world of ESL instruction is changing. Teaching degrees are increasingly becoming a requirement. Time to retool!

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

There is a difference between distance (off-campus) degrees and online degrees.

The main issue with an area like TESOL is that you cannot do a practicum if you are doing it by distance. But then, there are on-campus masters degrees that don't require a practicum anyway.

If you are doing it through a university that has both on-campus and off-campus modes available, find out if there's a difference. There usually isn't with the good schools.

If you read through this thread you see that the people who went to well known, real universities with off-campus programs (Birmingham etc) haven't had any problems with it. People who react only to "on-line" say that they are crap. I think part of the problem is just terminology. Most schools are not offering on-line masters degrees in TESOL. Most of the work you do isn't on-line. It's through articles and often a textbook- exactly the same as on-campus students. Teachers send you lecture notes and you work through it, using discussion boards for different topics in the course/unit/module.

Look at it from a university's point of view: universities attract students based almost entirely on their reputation. If you are an on-line school with a reputation of being a degree-mill, then that's what you will be. (There are 'real' on-line schools though, the US military uses them for example). If it's a university that is well known in your area (province or state or whatever) and has undergraduate degrees in a variety of subjects and students go there after high school to get their undergraduate degree etc, then you have a reputation as being a good university that people get degrees from. You would destroy that reputation by then producing sub-par distance degrees, and that would eventually lead to a drop in applications for on-campus studies because people wouldn't want to risk their degree being associated with any university that people commonly think of a a degree-mill (similar to people just refusing to go to universities affiliated with any particular religion because of the worry that it means that employers will see it and think 'Religious nut-job? Next!'). So real universities simply won't do that. Australia in particular has a lot of universities with off-campus programs available. It's because it basically became a requirement of universities to have off campus programs to get people. Too many people live outside of the big urban centres and so the universities needed a way to attract them. In fact, at some Australian universities, even if you are an on-campus student, you HAVE to do at least one or two units (Australian for North American 'course' or 'half-course') off-campus. It's part of the degree program to have the experience of working independently.

It's entirely possible that some schools will eventually start specifying on-campus degrees, though I doubt it will be common, in fact I think off-campus will become more and more common because people simply cannot afford to not work for a year, and possibly move to a new location in order to go to a university.

Distance MBAs are becoming very VERY common for this reason. Distance TESOL degrees, especially ones designed for teaching outside of an English speaking environment will likely become very common (and it makes more sense to do a program designed for non-English speaking environments in a non-English speaking environment for the same reason why it makes more sense to do a program designed to teach in an English speaking environment IN an English speaking environment- actual practice teaching real students while in training).

And I say all this as someone with experience getting qualifications in TESL/ TESOL both in a full-time year long program on-campus (specifically to teach English in an English medium environment), and in a full-time year-long program off-campus (specifically to teach English in a non-English medium environment).

[El Chupacabra]

[americancolleen]

Although my training and paid stateside experience have been mostly in teaching in English literature and composition rather than TESOL, I have applied for LOTS of U.S. teaching jobs. I have taught in an American university and at two U.S. private schools. I also hold public school certification in secondary English and have applied unsuccessfully for a number of public school positions.

For what they're worth, I have a number of observations based on my own experiences:

Where your degree is from is almost always an important factor, at least in determining whether or not you get an initial interview. Given how obsessed Americans are with getting into brand-name schools, this is not surprising. Schools (like Phoenix) that offer ONLY online degrees tend to be lacking in the name recognition factor.

At the university level, there is a definite "pecking order" based on the prestige of one's degree, as determined by things like magazine rankings, reputation and research of faculty members, etc. Universities also tend to be reluctant to hire their own graduates to teach, supposedly out of fear of breeding insularity.

At the secondary level, the source of the degree also matters, but not necessarily in the ways you might think. Certain local universities, not always the most prestigious, tend to act as "pipelines" into particular schools. Often this is simply because administrators want people who will "fit into the school culture" (Read: not rock the boat). They tend to hire from their own alma maters and from local institutions that provide their schools with student teachers. A principal educated at a state college may actually feel threatened by someone with an Ivy League degree, or at least fear the person wouldn't be able to relate to struggling or disadvantaged students.

Your best bet is to ask prospective programs where their recent graduates have been placed. Also ask about placement rate and career services. Teaching jobs can be very hard to come by, although male teachers are usually in higher demand (the need for role models, etc.).

A final consideration: Fees for the numerous required certification exams , background checks, forms that need to be filed, etc. can add $1000+ to the cost of getting public school certification. In my opinion, it is well worth the expense, but this is just another thing to know. Usually these expenses are spread out over a year or two.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[cangel]

If you are going to be in Japan, Temple University has both their MA and EdD in TESOL available in country: http://www.tuj.ac.jp/degree_programs/tesol.html

I received my MSEd in TESOL from Shenandoah University in Winchester, Virginia. You have the option of taking the program on campus or online. I did my degree on campus back in 1999-2000.

I have a friend from grad school that did his PhD and now works for a medium-sized university. He has been on his department's hiring committee for the past 3 years. They are instructed to set aside all CVs where the applicant has received their doctorate online, even when it's from a major university. They weight on-campus degrees much higher than distance degrees.

From my experience, if you do your degree online from a real university and not something like Walden, University of Phoenix, Jones University etc., you should be fine. These degree mills aren�t fooling anyone� Even though they are accredited�