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rc81
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 85
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 Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: "The Z Visa Debate" |
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I just got finished reading this and I am now close to being too scared to teach in China.
http://middlekingdomlife.com/guide/china-english-teacher-visas.htm
I am hoping some of you can clear some things up. I am sure I will come up with more questions but this is all Ive got right now:
-I am a US citizen, I have never had a visa in China before. Right now I am in Thailand. Do I actually need to go back to the US before I can legally work in China? Is there any way around this?
-The article seems to be saying that coming to China (and paying your own airfare) is basically just an extended job interview and that the school can fire you for any reason at any time. Does anyone disagree with this?
-There is a section about needing reference letters in order to get work later. It says, if your boss is unhappy or fires you, it is unlikely you will be able to find work again in China. Any disagreements with this part?
The article has basically scared the S outta me. |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| In the vast majority of provinces, however, the only way you will be able to obtain employment is if you return back to your native country and reenter China with a Z-visa in hand, as is the case in Guangdong, as well as many other provinces. |
-- From the article: Z Visa Debate
I entered China with only an offer letter of employment and a 60-day Tourist Visa from Thailand in hand. Two months later I did a visa run to Hong Kong and got a second 30-day Tourist Visa, which was then changed into a Z Visa at the PSB office in Shenzhen. So that's one way. Be wary of articles that use language like the only way this and the only way that. For the fox, there are many ways, for the hedgehog, only one. |
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YAMARI
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| alter ego wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the vast majority of provinces, however, the only way you will be able to obtain employment is if you return back to your native country and reenter China with a Z-visa in hand, as is the case in Guangdong, as well as many other provinces. |
-- From the article: Z Visa Debate
I entered China with only an offer letter of employment and a 60-day Tourist Visa from Thailand in hand. Two months later I did a visa run to Hong Kong and got a second 30-day Tourist Visa, which was then changed into a Z Visa at the PSB office in Shenzhen. So that's one way. Be wary of articles that use language like the only way this and the only way that. For the fox, there are many ways, for the hedgehog, only one. |
Can you please tell me how long the process took in H.K, what papers did you need and where you did this in H.K. |
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rc81
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| alter ego wrote: |
I entered China with only an offer letter of employment and a 60-day Tourist Visa from Thailand in hand. Two months later I did a visa run to Hong Kong and got a second 30-day Tourist Visa, which was then changed into a Z Visa at the PSB office in Shenzhen. So that's one way. Be wary of articles that use language like the only way this and the only way that. For the fox, there are many ways, for the hedgehog, only one. |
So you paid for your flight to China, then paid for a round trip flight to HK and back to China two months later?
Couldn't you have avoided the trip to HK? I ask that because it seems like you were on the same visa both times. I dont understand why the first tourist visa couldnt have been changed into the Z. |
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rc81
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: |
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From the article, it seems like the worst possible scenario would be this:
You pay to fly to China. The school doesnt like you for X reason. They give you a bad reference and then you not only have to leave the country again on your own dime but you could possibly be banned from working again in the country, just based on a reference.
Please tell me this is not possible.
Im sure I must be over reacting to this but so far living in Asia has only shown me that anything is possible. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: |
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RC,
Take my advice...
U gotta MAN UP!
I think just lack of experience or youth makes u think like a princess,
or maybe u R a princess, and in that case u should just go home.
If not, then
Just MAN UP, don't be such a wimp.
Not said in disrespect rc, more like brotherly exhortation. |
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Hansen
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 737
Location: central China
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Coming to China with a Z visa is the best and safest way for most people.
Recently an "attractive black man" posted an experience with a school. He came here without proper papers and they simply blew him off because they didn't like his hairstyle. Maybe the boss just wanted to see a black man close up. They may have never planned to hire the guy. A "Z"visa in hand might have prevented all that. |
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Jayray
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 373
Location: Back East
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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What's so *beep*ing hard to understand about Z visas? You need to go through the process of securing a job before you will be issued a Z visa. People who want to work in China and arrive with something other than a Z visa, then log onto an ESL board to ask "What should I do?" shouldn't leave home.
Yeah, it's great to give advice to "just make a run to HK and you'll get your L visa changed. The cousin of a friend of a buddy of someone I know did it three months ago." Yeah, sure. It happens all the time. But what if someone CAN'T get his L visa changed? How many stories have we read of people who arrived on an L visa only to find that they were up the creek without a life vest?
No amount of boo-hoo-ing and whining and hand wringing is going to change anyone's mind or anybody's visa from an L to a Z. It's an unhappy fact that not everyone knows how, when, and where to bend the rules.
MK says that China is not so much a country ruled by laws as a country ruled by relationships. This was said by an insider. If one has no guanxi in China, then he should stick to the stated rules or stay home.
It's that simple. One does not learn the ropes from afar. |
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Teatime of Soul
Joined: 12 Apr 2007
Posts: 905
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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You do not need to go back to the USA.
You just need to have your invitation letter from the school specify Thailand as the place where you will process your Z visa.
Problem is, some FAOs are clueless/careless and just say go to your home country rather than go through the trivial bother of having the govt. office insert the correct country name on the form. |
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Tsuris
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 69
Location: Wasting My Life Away in China
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| rc81 wrote: |
From the article, it seems like the worst possible scenario would be this:
You pay to fly to China. The school doesnt like you for X reason. They give you a bad reference and then you not only have to leave the country again on your own dime but you could possibly be banned from working again in the country, just based on a reference.
Please tell me this is not possible. |
It's very possible and happens all the time. You pay to fly to China on a tourist visa with the promise that it will be converted to a Z-visa. The school doesn't like you for X reason. You have no job, no Z-visa, and no residency permit.
| Middle Kingdom Life wrote: |
| Many private schools, even those that are licensed by the SAFEA to hire foreign experts, will often promise to convert that tourist visa into a work visa (in provinces and municipalities that allow it) while their real intention is to delay signing a contract until after they have had the chance to observe the teacher perform in the classroom. In essence, the foreign teacher is being asked to fly up to halfway around the world for what is no more than a glorified job interview or trial period. |
The letter of recommendation wouldn't be an issue because, technically, you were never employed.
From the same author of MKL, here is another tidbit worth considering on a different website for those of the "anything is possible in China if you are just clever enough" school of thought:
| Quote: |
In our ongoing study of foreign teachers in China, the respondents were very closely divided between whether or not they had entered China on a Z-visa (work visa) to earn income. Approximately 46 percent or 200 teachers did arrive in China with a work visa, while the remaining 54 percent, or 228 teachers, arrived with either a tourist (38.9 percent), business (10.2 percent) or student (3.7 percent) visa.
There was a highly significant statistical difference between visa type and eventually receiving a foreign expert certificate (FEC) and residency permit with an odds ratio of 4.5:1 against eventually working legally in China among those who entered the country on anything other than a Z-visa.
While entering China to work on a Z-visa was not a guarantee that one would eventually receive a foreign expert certificate and residency permit (eight teachers arrived on a work visa and reported that they did not receive an FEC and residency permit), 4.5 to 1 are terrible odds when you are moving up to halfway around the world for employment.
From Teaching English in China: Do You Really Need a Degree and Work Visa? |
If 4.5:1 odds don't appeal to you, then just make sure you come to China with a Z-visa. As Teatime wrote, you can get one from Thailand. |
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alter ego
Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Posts: 209
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| rc81 wrote: |
| So you paid for your flight to China, then paid for a round trip flight to HK and back to China two months later? |
No. Paid for two one-way flights to Shenzhen International Airport (one for me and one for my Thai wife), then 5 weeks later took the metro to the Hong Kong Border to get an express 30-day L visa.
| Quote: |
| Couldn't you have avoided the trip to HK? I ask that because it seems like you were on the same visa both times. I dont understand why the first tourist visa couldnt have been changed into the Z. |
My first 60-day L visa (the one I got in Bangkok) was two weeks away from expiring when Wall Street finally got around to processing my Z visa, and due to a long National Day holiday there wasn't enough time left for Wall Street to process my Z visa, thus the inconvenient but unavoidable visa run for the same-day L in Hong Kong.
| Quote: |
| Can you please tell me how long the process took in H.K, what papers did you need and where you did this in H.K. |
Got the 30-day L at a one of the small visa agencies (don't recall the name but there are plenty of them on H.K. Island) for around 1,500 rmb. Submitted my passport late AM, picked it up late afternoon (4 pm) the same day. |
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Lipps
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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TeaTime, wrong. --> Unless a person specifically has a legitimate visa for residence in the country they are applying. Otherwise, that person should have to return to their home country or request the school to have HONG KONG as the place of invitation.
I just started working for a visa company (Taking a break from teaching)
JayJay, totally agree. No idea why people insist on making inquiry about how to work illegally. |
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rc81
Joined: 03 Jul 2009
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| thanks guys |
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YAMARI
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Can you please tell me how long the process took in H.K, what papers did you need and where you did this in H.K. |
Got the 30-day L at a one of the small visa agencies (don't recall the name but there are plenty of them on H.K. Island) for around 1,500 rmb. Submitted my passport late AM, picked it up late afternoon (4 pm) the same day.[/quote]
I asked about getting a z-visa in H.K. and you told me about getting an L-visa. Not sure if you just wrote L by mistake. If you really paid 1500 rmb for a 30 day L visa you got ripped off. You can get a 90 day double entry L visa for 750 rmb at the SheKou ferry terminal.
My questions are where do I go in H.k. for my Z visa and how long will it take. |
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