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lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
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 Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| lizziebennet wrote: |
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| When Hajj's vacation arrived, temporary papers allowed travel about Saudi Arabia |
Some of us flew to Jeddah for part of the Hajj vacation. Others hired a car and travelled all over Saudi in it. None of us had travel papers. They looked at our visas in our passports and let us through no problem. I am not quite sure what you mean here... |
When and while applying for an iqama, a passport is required. In the meantime, I have a temporary ID from my sponsor/employer. I had not intended to imply 'travel papers' but a form of ID other than a passport with which I might travel without apprehension.
If a shortage of teachers has resulted in easily renewable 90 day visas it is something of a sea change given the reactions of those with past experience in Saudi Arabia. |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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| craig49 wrote: |
| i cannot say that i agree with Kalima Shahada, for most people going through the visa process several times a year is not ideal at all. it is unfortunate that you are not being treated well in KSA, however it might have something to do with the fact that you are not a native speaker. this is very obvious from your name and how fickle you are about grammar as in some of your previous posts. |
BTW, I AM a native English speaker (born, bred and raised in the USA). My skin is as white as anything you will find next to an albino. Kalima Shahada is not my real name. People do not normally use their real names on here (just incase you didn't know). Do you have any idea what my handle means? I'll give you a hint - Muslim. You obviously are ignorant about the fact that many people on here are anal about grammar, spelling and punctuation (something you could work on).
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| in KSA nationality is often much more important than how good a person can teach or think they can teach, especially a non-native teacher. for me, i haven't had too many problems while in KSA but that is just me. students also complain about non native teachers because to them it just seems unfair. all of this makes it easier for the school or admin to take advantage. in my experience native english speakers with western passports get treated the best, even those with western passports but were born abroad and eventually got the passport get treated decent, but those with other passports are sometimes at the mercy of the system. Kalima Shahada if you are really not happy with your conditions why not look for another job? |
I think you have a serious problem with reading comprehension. I am no longer in the KSA. ALL OF US WERE PRETTY MUCH TREATED THE SAME WHERE I WORKED! It didn't matter what country you came from or what you looked like. We all still had to put up with the same old horse manure that stunk up the place. Most of the teachers were far more tolerant of it than I was. I was really angry and I left!
Last edited by Kalima Shahada on Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:14 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Education Experts |
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| tacomaboywa wrote: |
| Kalima Shahada wrote: |
I wouldn't; I'd consider it an all-expenses-paid holiday every 90 days.  You don't get that under a regular work visa. Under normal work contracts, the best you can hope for is a plane ticket back home only once a year and the rest is at your own expense. |
Doubtful, most of these recruiters try to save as much money and get these things renewed in country. They normally don't need to send you anywhere. It's possible to get stuck in the country for the whole academic year. It has happened to many who have come on Business Visas and such.
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Look, I had a perfectly legit work visa and I was at a large university, but we never got a compound or a bus. We were promised compound like apartments complete with gyms and facilites, but we ended up in a 3 star hotel with no kitchens, no washing machines, no printers and one computer for the whole hotel. Nevermind about getting the allowance to find our own place even though that was stipulated in our contract as an option. Nobody was given that option.
Bank accounts? Yeah right! The university took three to six months (or not at all) to process an Iqama. They waited so long that some people had to go out and come back with another work visa!
A bus?! You've got to be kidding! We were lucky to be picked up at all! Even if we were picked up, the vas was frequently late.
I had a lot of things in writing in my contract, but the only promise they ever kept was picking me up at the airport on time. Some people didn't even get that.
If you ask me, contracts mean nothing in Saudi - absolutely NOTHING! |
I know many many people who have never had problems with their legit contracts. My personal experience as well has been positive. The only thing that seems to happen often is that employers may promise or suggest you'll get something verbally and it often doesn't happen. If it is not in the contract or in some written form then they do not have to do anything. However, everything that has been included in my contract has always been fulfilled. You just seem to be unlucky. |
Everything was written in my ten-page contract (both in English and in Arabic)! Not only that, but I also had emails and pictures of the apartments they supposedly were going to put us in. Perhaps I was unlucky, but it wasn't just me who was unlucky. There were hundreds of teachers before and after me who were also just as unlucky as I was. My point is that employers do NOT have to honor their own employment contracts in Saudi Arabia and you have very little recourse if they don't. Just talk to a few maids in Saudi and they should be able to fill you in on truth.
I am not sure, but I think Edex is also placing teachers at the university where I worked. |
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Citizenkane wrote: |
| Have to agree with the above poster: Unless you are really desperate, do not go to Saudi Arabia unless you have a proper work visa, or your employer guarantees - in writing - that he will procure you such a visa asap after your arrival. |
If you think that having an employment contract with a proper work visa guarantees you everything in writing, you are a fool! In Saudi, employment contracts only serve to help you get your work visa. After that, it's up to Allah if you get anything you were promised regardless of whether it was in writing or not. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I wonder how the teachers on these contracts will fare over the summer break ? On a government contract - direct hire - lecturers get paid for the summer holidays.
Bell are showing the way to recruiters and contractors by paying only 11 months salary over the year. A disturbing trend.
My advice is go for a directr hire contract with one of the established institutions. |
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Citizenkane
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 234
Location: Xanadu
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| If you think that having an employment contract with a proper work visa guarantees you everything in writing, you are a fool! |
Did I actually say anything of the sort?
there are no guarantees in life, certainly not in KSA. but you at least have a chance of decent treatment if you go with an established employer on a proper work visa. Going with a recruiter on a business visa is practically asking to be abused, imho. |
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BillCowher
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Up in the air!!!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: Reply to Lizzie Bennet |
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Lizzie, the following is sort of a rebuttal and explanation of things at another EdEx facility. In addition to the document I created pasting selected lines from your post and my follow-ups; there are some additions. Several people here at Najran have been moved out with little or no warning and EdEx is advertising the positions still in various other job sites as well as this one for less pay than we are currently making.
None of us knows if we will get our work visas as promised or just have the (yes they ARE illegal) Government Visit Visas renewed or even possibly just sent home. The hotel where many of us stay has rather nice suites but we had to buy all our cooking utensils even as far as a coffee cup or drinking glass. The rent here is overdue for payment at least 40 days and we wonder when the management will stop listening to assurances & unceremoniously evict us onto the streets a couple miles from Yemen. We heard gun & rocket fire across the border a week or so ago from the rebels on both sides fighting with the militaries of both governments. We are practicing our vehicle hot-wiring in case we have to steal a truck & get out if the government comes & checks our non working visas.
LB: Just to make it clear we are on a 90 day govt visa. The university name is written on it in Arabic. So we are not here illegally, we are here legally.
BILL: My visa is also written in Arabic except for the 4 words, "Not Permitted to Work. "The contract I signed and presented for my visa said it was for The Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University in Riyadh so why am I teaching at Najran University which, by the way, was a twelve (12) hour bus ride from Riyadh?
LB: You can send money through Telemoney so there is no problem there. It arrives in 1 day and they charge SAR75 per SAR10 000.
BILL: You need a person with an iqama to do it for you. If I had an iqama I could go by myself. As it is I must have a driver and a second person with an iqama to send money. PS: Western Union arrives as soon as you tell someone the number for pick up & is cheaper to send than Telemoney.
LB: We have drivers that drive us to the university everyday. Our main driver also drives us to the bank after we get paid. EDex bought a very large van to accomodate us in this way. Every evening there is a trip to a mall a hypermarket or souk. This means that you don't have to pay a taxi to go do your shopping and can just go with the van.
BILL: Here in Najran there are no taxis other than gypsy drivers who charge what the market will bear (no company van or car of any kind either).
LB: The company will not be giving us igamas which is bad for those with families but for others we are perfectly fine without them.
BILL: It is NEVER fine to be on an illegal visa unless you want to run away. You can�t transfer money by yourself, get a post office box, buy a car or get a Saudi DL without it. You CAN, however, leave the country any time you wish.
LB: By the way we just had a 17 day vacation and got our full salary for it. Yes, it was late but they told us it would be late and paid on the day. I think they had to travel to Najran by car so maybe that is why they were paid after us. Apparently it will be late every month. In Korea we used to get paid on the 5th or 10th of the next month so are used to that.
BILL: In Korea you were , (like I was for over 7 years) told (in your contract) what day was payday was except if payday was on a holiday it would be paid the first day back at work. That date is acceptable since you can base your schedule on it. It is NOT acceptable for the pay to be late monthly because some of us have mortgages, car payments and the like. We can�t just say to the lending company, �Oh I haven�t been paid yet but I�ll pay you whenever I get paid.� Can you imagine what they would say to that?
LB: Not only that, but EDEX hired an entire ISLAND on the RED SEA for the teachers during the vacation. It was an all expenses paid 3 days on an island. About 25 of us went and had an awsome time! We didn't have to wear the abaya or anything. We swam day and night, went out on boat trips. Went fishing and snorkelling. Sat around campfires. Smoked Apple flavoured shisha, played cards and relaxed. It was a little taste of paradise
BILL: Here in Najran we sat in our hotels with very limited internet & no pay. It was NOT, repeat NOT, � � a little taste of paradise.�
LB: Because we all live in the same hotel we do group activities such as quiz nights, board games nights, dinners, going to restuarants, quad biking and bbq's. Sometimes these acivities are done in smaller groups depending on who your friendship circle is.
Some here in Najran play soccer on the local field that is free but I have yet to find a pork chop for that BBQ (duh). If I could, I would have lechon on Thursdays.
http://milas-lechon.com/ Search that for a treat. It goes good with keggers LOL.
LB: As far as things to do there is really not much, especially for woman. Edex has offered to pay half of our gym fees. We are lucky that there is a woman's gym 2 blocks away.
BILL: Don�t hold your breath waiting for EdEx to reimburse you for that fee. I have not yet had my visa fees reimbursed, nor the taxi fee in the Riyadh airport. There are women teaching here in Najran as well but no gym of any kind for them.
LB: I am happy with my job, I get paid and I enjoy the teaching. My husband and I live on US $1000 a month
BILL: Once you bought cookware & your initial food stock; why can�t a family of 2 survive on about $300.00/mo.? I get by on about $200.00 & I am quite wasteful. I also do not count the things I buy & send home to my wife & family.
BILL: I don�t mean to pick on you because you apparently are enjoying yourself but I have been reading your posts here for much longer than I have been registered as a poster. What you have just written does not seem to be representative of some of your other posts.
Good Luck in "The Magic (sic) Kingdom"
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Kalima Shahada
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 198
Location: I live in a house, but my home is in the stable.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Reply to Lizzie Bennet |
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| BillCowher wrote: |
| It is NEVER fine to be on an illegal visa unless you want to run away. You can�t transfer money by yourself, get a post office box, buy a car or get a Saudi DL without it. You CAN, however, leave the country any time you wish. |
That makes all the difference in the world - the fact that you CAN leave. On a work visa (without an Iqama and multiple entry stamp), you can't leave! Just think, you could be treated the exact same way as you are now or WORSE, refused an Iqama and you'd be stuck without an exit visa (so you could NOT leave)! What's worse? See, if you don't like it, you CAN pack it up and get the hay out. I could NOT on an employment visa. My embassy had to pull political strings to get me out of Saudi Arabia! I could have never done it without them! |
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lizziebennet
Joined: 24 May 2009
Posts: 355
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:09 pm Post subject: Response to Bill |
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[quote] The hotel where many of us stay has rather nice suites but we had to buy all our cooking utensils even as far as a coffee cup or drinking glass. [/ Quote]
We haven't really had this problem as they provided most things except for coffee cups which I bought for SAR3 at PANDA.
[quote] LB: You can send money through Telemoney so there is no problem there. It arrives in 1 day and they charge SAR75 per SAR10 000. [/ Quote]
My husband and I went alone to a bank and they sent our money without an igama. We then went the next month to telemoney and did not require an igama. I really have no idea where tyour info comes from when every one of our teachers (about 40) have been able to send money at a number of different banking institutions without help from our company or an igama
[quote] BILL: My visa is also written in Arabic except for the 4 words, "Not Permitted to Work." The contract I signed and presented for my visa said it was for The Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University in Riyadh so why am I teaching at Najran University which, by the way, was a twelve (12) hour bus ride from Riyadh? [/ Quote]
These are govt universities and the ministry of education would have been the one to move you. As far as my arabic friends tell me that English printing refers to work outside of the university. There is no way you will get in trouble working at a govt university on a govt visa. It may be a back door but it is still acceptable and openly known.
[quote] BILL: Here in Najran we sat in our hotels with very limited internet & no pay. It was NOT, repeat NOT, "... a little taste of paradise." [/ Quote]
I spoke on the phone with some guys from Najran (unfortunately this was before we got to know about the island and we were staying in a hotel in Jeddah). They said they were gonna hire a car and come down. The marina where we got the boat to the island was 3 hours South of Jeddah. I think it was about 3 or 4 hours away from you guys. I suggested one of the drivers get sent to pick you guys up but th drivers had already been driving for a day with the Qassim people and were exhausted. Wish you guys had! We missed you! It sucks that you didn't get transport.
[quote] BILL: Don't hold your breath waiting for EdEx to reimburse you for that fee. I have not yet had my visa fees reimbursed, nor the taxi fee in the Riyadh airport. There are women teaching here in Najran as well but no gym of any kind for them. [/ Quote]
Most people (if not all) who had a receipt have been reimbursed already so this is not true from our side. Also check out the local hospital. That is usually where a woman's gym can be found.
[quote]
BILL: I don't mean to pick on you because you apparently are enjoying yourself but I have been reading your posts here for much longer than I have been registered as a poster. What you have just written does not seem to be representative of some of your other posts. [/ Quote]
This was the first time I posted since arriving in Saudi Arabia so I did not represent anything in Saudi and differently as I had not been here went I posted previous posts.
I think you should ask to be transferred to Qassim, it seems like we are better off here than you even though we are working for the same company. There are some openings I hear ... |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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"NOT PERMITTED TO WORK" Four words - pretty clear I would say !
Of course you are not "working", you are engaged in "consultancy" ! |
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BillCowher
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 131
Location: Up in the air!!!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Qassim |
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LB: I think you should ask to be transferred to Qassim, it seems like we are better off here than you even though we are working for the same company. There are some openings I hear ...
BILL The guy I shared the bus with was transferred FROM Qassim where he liked it. Now he is in Najran so...??? That was the third week of Nov. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Response to Bill |
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[quote="lizziebennet"]
| Quote: |
BILL: My visa is also written in Arabic except for the 4 words, "Not Permitted to Work." The contract I signed and presented for my visa said it was for The Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University in Riyadh so why am I teaching at Najran University which, by the way, was a twelve (12) hour bus ride from Riyadh? [/ Quote]
These are govt universities and the ministry of education would have been the one to move you. As far as my arabic friends tell me that English printing refers to work outside of the university. There is no way you will get in trouble working at a govt university on a govt visa. It may be a back door but it is still acceptable and openly known.
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I'm glad that things are mostly positive for you, but your Arabic speaking friends are completely wrong. "Not Permitted to Work" means exactly what it says. You are not able to legally work anywhere in Saudi Arabia with that visa. You are working illegally at the university.
That said, it is only an issue if either your employer or the government decides to make it an issue. Remember the line in Casablanca about the gambling at Rick's cafe? (shocking... just shocking... as he pockets his night's winnings) That is the "reality" that you have stepped into. It allows your employer to get rid of you (and all other teachers that they may not like) by suddenly realizing that you are under the illegal visas that they slapped in your passport.
This is probably fine for a short term contract since it allows you to leave easily if things turn bad for you. (such as, if they transfer you to Najran too)
VS |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| That makes all the difference in the world - the fact that you CAN leave. On a work visa (without an Iqama and multiple entry stamp), you can't leave! Just think, you could be treated the exact same way as you are now or WORSE, refused an Iqama and you'd be stuck without an exit visa (so you could NOT leave)! |
Your (to me rather bizarre)insistence that it is somehow better to be in KSA on an illegal basis is focussed on your rather extreme experience. Even in KSA, jobs are rarely so intolerable that people feel obliged to do a runner between holidays, and almost all employers give exit visas when requested. I'm not saying all do, but most do.
I really don't see how anyone can seriously claim you are better off not having a legal working visa. As well as all the practical issues connected to not having an iqama, the fact remains - as has been stated many times - that you are in the country on an illegal basis. In other words, you have NO rights. Now, I know people are going to say that when push comes to shove, you have very few rights in KSA anyway, and that's true. However, I'd rather take my chances with a company which at least is prepared to go to the trouble of getting me a legal visa, and which has the correct status at the Min of Labour to obtain one for me. It definitely seems preferable to working for some operation without the credentials to get proper visas for its staff, and who can get rid of you overnight without even the normal safeguards - weak though they are - which apply in KSA. The thing about being free to leave on a business visa obviously works both ways. |
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tacomaboywa
Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 194
Location: The Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Response to Bill |
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[quote="veiledsentiments"]
| lizziebennet wrote: |
| Quote: |
BILL: My visa is also written in Arabic except for the 4 words, "Not Permitted to Work." The contract I signed and presented for my visa said it was for The Imam Muhammad bin Saud Islamic University in Riyadh so why am I teaching at Najran University which, by the way, was a twelve (12) hour bus ride from Riyadh? [/ Quote]
These are govt universities and the ministry of education would have been the one to move you. As far as my arabic friends tell me that English printing refers to work outside of the university. There is no way you will get in trouble working at a govt university on a govt visa. It may be a back door but it is still acceptable and openly known.
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I'm glad that things are mostly positive for you, but your Arabic speaking friends are completely wrong. "Not Permitted to Work" means exactly what it says. You are not able to legally work anywhere in Saudi Arabia with that visa. You are working illegally at the university.
That said, it is only an issue if either your employer or the government decides to make it an issue. Remember the line in Casablanca about the gambling at Rick's cafe? (shocking... just shocking... as he pockets his night's winnings) That is the "reality" that you have stepped into. It allows your employer to get rid of you (and all other teachers that they may not like) by suddenly realizing that you are under the illegal visas that they slapped in your passport.
This is probably fine for a short term contract since it allows you to leave easily if things turn bad for you. (such as, if they transfer you to Najran too)
VS |
VS is completely right about this, as several of us have tried to point out. Its a situation that the employers take advantage of and other parties look the other way. I hope the situation remains positive for you throughout your stay. But be aware that EDEX or whoever is in control of your visa can ask you to leave anytime they wish. The papers you signed with them mean almost nothing since you are not on an Employment Visa. However, we all hope that things work out for the best. I would suggest talking to HR at the University and asking for a direct hire. After you've been working there for about 3 months they may be willing to give you an offer.
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Avoid M-Trading!
http://www.tulbah.org/ |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sorry Kalima, but if you wish to retain credibility you need to tell us the university you were working at. Your experience doesn't correlate with the majority of direct hires on work permits in the Kingdom. |
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