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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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 Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Moreover, how can practically every family come up with the finances to support engagement, marriage, house purchases and raising a family? |
-bonuses/perks that they don't mention when reciting a salary figure
-black/gray income
-efficient intergenerational transfer of wealth
Last edited by Zero on Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
-bonuses/perks that they don't mention when reciting a salary figure
-black/gray income
-efficient intergenerational transfer of wealth |
BINGO!  |
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A'Moo
Joined: 21 Jan 2007
Posts: 1067
Location: a supermarket that sells cheese
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| LanGuTou wrote: |
OK NorWalk:
I guess your long list of daily activity is designed to show that a person can get by on a frugal living here in China. 3000 rmb per month should easily be enough for anyone. Too True! If you live within the confines of a very small box!
Let's step outside the box for a minute:
Recently, I had to return home. Return air ticket 7225 rmb and domestic flights (x2) 1320 rmb.
Money needed to get by at home 600 GBP or c. 6600 rmb.
I have a long standing relationship with a girl in China. We decided to get married next year. First there is the engagement:
I took my girlfriend to the jewellers yesterday. Bought a ring with a 50% discount from 14500 rmb to 7250 rmb.
We decided to have a western style engagement dinner party on Christmas Day. Ordered some roses, some wine and and the food 700 rmb.
Following our Western engagement, I will have further expenses related to traditional Chinese customs of engagement. A not so inconsiderable amount of money is traditionally paid to the fiancee's family. Typical sums of money are 66,666 rmb, 77,777 rmb or 88,888 rmb. This has not been fixed yet but there is another 60,000+ rmb.
Following engagements, comes the small matter of a marriage ceremony. Nothing over the top planned but I will reckon to budget another 20,000 rmb.
To live any kind of satisfactory lifestyle in China, I also have to think about investing in property and a vehicle. Not within the bounds of a few hundred rmb per month.
And maybe a family: 
But you could say all of these expenses are unnecessary! After all, the Chinese teachers don't get married and have families, buy property etc., do they?
I could be frugal and celebate. Get by on 3000 rmb per month. However, I have found it a preferable option to have someone to love and come home to.
In fact, frankly speaking, I find the money that I am paid for being a FT in a Chinese University wholly unacceptable. Fortunately, I came to China with a sound financial base and this will certainly be the last year I teach. Officially, my contract ends July next year but I am using every method that I can to get out of it now.
As an aside, I posed the question to my students:
"What do you think would be a reasonable income level for an ordinary family in China with one child and possibly a very ordinary car".
The concensus of opinion was somewhere between 5000 to 6000 rmb per month.
I listen and learn. This rhetoric related to we only get xxxx rmb now goes in one ear and out of the other.
Some people in China are down trodden. That is the complex nature of Chinese society, population and politics. China is unfair in many aspects of social justice but how many of them attend university, buy fashionable clothes, buy cellphones, find money to travel, eat everyday in restaurants and still fulfill their life needs? How many of them find money for motorcars?
Moreover, how can practically every family come up with the finances to support engagement, marriage, house purchases and raising a family? |
Sounds like you are making very few of the decisions... |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| A'Moo wrote: |
Sounds like you are making very few of the decisions... |
Actually, I decided that it would be nice to first have a Western engagement on Christmas Day and give a ring. That was what I wanted.
But you are right! As far as the Betrothal Gifts are concerned, I have no influence on Chinese tradition and it has been comprehensively proven to me that the family of Chinese males usually make this gesture (especially in rural communities). I don't agree to it but , by refusing to pay 聘礼 money, my fiancee would lose face in front of her family and neighbours. One way or another, by marrying Chinese nationals in their own country, you have to support their family, before or after the marriage.
There are other things that my girlfriend has had to make concessions over. It's called give and take. |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: |
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[quote="A'Moo"]
| LanGuTou wrote: |
OK NorWalk:
I guess your long list of daily activity is designed to show that a person can get by on a frugal living here in China. 3000 rmb per month should easily be enough for anyone. Too True! If you live within the confines of a very small box! |
I get by on much less than 3k. Set up costs have set me back 200 RMB (the horror!  ) so that budget will not be accurate this month as I buy rugs, cleaning supplies, water filtration, etc. If 60RMB of candy gets me stuffed, sick on sugar and we ate half, how much can a life well lived cost?
I don't consider buying the AT's tonnes of candy and food, going to a restaurant and being invited to a drinking game by two farmers who speak ZERO English, and talking to many people on the street to be "living within the confines of a very small box!" Planning a vacation to Lhasa or someplace down south for a few weeks is not a small box. Buying my DELTA books and reading them and planning to take Module One in a year or two is not a small box. Dinner in the nice restaurant is 60 RMB TOPS. This is a great life, and I am sure the more seasoned and cynical disagree.
One perq of ESL is that many of us do not have autos. This monthly expense with gasoline and insurance alone - assume the car is owned and bought - reaches $400 -$600 in California. Life without a car is impossible in much of the USA. In many ESL locations life without a car is just fine. That is 4200 RMB saved. Insurance, all the other expenses of US life that seem so pricey {$22 for a movie ticket? $22?!! That is 150 RMB.}
I think this is just an example of someone who gets by on very little (me) and is very happy with his lifestyle, encountering people who "must have" all of this other "stuff". 30 Years ago I was spending $300+ a week dining out in restaurants and bars so I do know what it is like to HAVE TO spend spend spend. I also know 20 - somethings who live frugally and save and do not feel compelled to go out 5 nights a week as compared to several responders on this thread.
Vive la diff�rence! Hale and hearty healthy cheap food to all!
And Merry Christmas! |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I would also like to challenge the notion that there is a clean division between the younger people, who need to spend a lot of clubs and drinking, and the over-40 crowd, who like quiet evenings at home with their knitting. A lot of the foreigners in China who are drinking the most and spending the most time (and, one presumes, money) chasing girls are those aged 45 to 65. I'd say it has a lot more to do with personality than age. |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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| norwalkesl wrote: |
I don't consider buying the AT's tonnes of candy and food, going to a restaurant and being invited to a drinking game by two farmers who speak ZERO English, and talking to many people on the street to be "living within the confines of a very small box!" Planning a vacation to Lhasa or someplace down south for a few weeks is not a small box. Buying my DELTA books and reading them and planning to take Module One in a year or two is not a small box. Dinner in the nice restaurant is 60 RMB TOPS. This is a great life, and I am sure the more seasoned and cynical disagree. |
The more seasoned, aye. But for those coming to China for the first time, or even those in China less than a year its almost impossible to live that kind of life, unless they wish to become hermits. Language and understanding of Chinese culture are rather large barriers to overcome when you first come to China, and be honest, its only when you have a rather decent understanding of both, that you can live on such smaller amounts.
If your point is that its possible to live on less than 3500 when you're a seasoned expat in China, then sure, I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, if you're saying that anyone can live that way... then I totally disagree with you. |
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zootown
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="norwalkesl"][quote="A'Moo"]
| LanGuTou wrote: |
OK NorWalk:
cost?
I don't consider buying the AT's tonnes of candy and food, going to a restaurant and being invited to a drinking game by two farmers who speak ZERO English, and talking to many people on the street to be "living within the confines of a very small box!" Planning a vacation to Lhasa or someplace down south for a few weeks is not a small box. Buying my DELTA books and reading them and planning to take Module One in a year or two is not a small box. Dinner in the nice restaurant is 60 RMB TOPS. This is a great life, and I am sure the more seasoned and cynical disagree.
! |
So you want to go to Lhasa,Ti bet.
That is not a cheap trip.You will blow 3500 easily.
If you want to go to Ti bet you need a special permit and is organized for the most part through goverment certified travel agencies who stipulate that you must take their organized tour.
These trips cost far more than anywhere else in China.
Yes I know of people doing it on there own but this year and most likely next year it will be difficult to get into Ti bet.
Even if you do get in by your self Lhasa accomodation is not cheap.
How long have you been in China? |
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Steinmann
Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 255
Location: In the frozen north
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| Posted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| This thread is really beginning to read like Walden. |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: |
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[quote="zootown"][quote="norwalkesl"]
| A'Moo wrote: |
| LanGuTou wrote: |
| I don't consider buying the AT's tonnes of candy and food, going to a restaurant and being invited to a drinking game by two farmers who speak ZERO English, and talking to many people on the street to be "living within the confines of a very small box!" Planning a vacation to Lhasa or someplace down south for a few weeks is not a small box. Buying my DELTA books and reading them and planning to take Module One in a year or two is not a small box. Dinner in the nice restaurant is 60 RMB TOPS. This is a great life, and I am sure the more seasoned and cynical disagree. |
So you want to go to Lhasa.
That is not a cheap trip.You will blow 3500 easily.
If you want to go to Ti bet you need a special permit and is organized for the most part through goverment certified travel agencies who stipulate that you must take their organized tour.
These trips cost far more than anywhere else in China.
Yes I know of people doing it on there own but this year and most likely next year it will be difficult to get into Ti bet.
Even if you do get in by your self Lhasa accomodation is not cheap.
How long have you been in China? |
Ya know, I think this is clearly the case of someone who is good at finding bargains (me) encountering those who cannot. Maybe it is good karma, good chi, good vibes, whatever. For instance the Directors dropped by last night while I was doing laundry and gave me my Christmas presents in person. A huge box of apples and a large box of those fried twisty bread sticks. For example my r/t flight from LAX to PEK was $650 USD.
Maybe showing up at the train station in a suit was a good idea. Maybe going to most of my lessons wearing dress pants, a tie and dress shoes has a bearing on how I experience China. Maybe being polite, professional and 'put together' has some bearing on this.
{shrug}
Dunno. Don't care. I am tired of having discussions with 22 year olds which entail this:
Norwalk: "I am experiencing this in China."
Others: "NO YOU ARE NOT!"
I have grown weary of this dynamic within this thread, and have decided to not post to it anymore. Anything I write will be argued over and I am far beyond the point of explaining or justifying myself to anyone.
"I am not young enough to know everything." -- Oscar Wilde
Y'all have a good'un, ya'hear? |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Norwalk,
In a rural area and without expensive habits, I don�t doubt at all that you can live your daily life on 3,500 a month. The thing is, you posted on another thread that you had been retired and living on savings for a year before you began TEFLing. That leads me to believe that you have significant savings. So, if the going gets tough as far as health concerns or needing to leave or what have you, you would have a safety net to fall back on. In that sense, living on a low salary would be more realistic and comfortable for you than for a younger person or one without savings, because they need more margin for error in their budget and probably should be trying to save for a rainy day.
If someone has no savings and no family to help out, then working for 3,500 a month is a scary proposition. |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
Norwalk,
If someone has no savings and no family to help out, then working for 3,500 a month is a scary proposition. |
Last edited by LanGuTou on Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cormac
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 768
Location: Xi'an (XTU)
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| Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero, Spot on. Nice post. |
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zootown
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 310
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| Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:23 am Post subject: |
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[quote="norwalkesl"][quote="zootown"]
| norwalkesl wrote: |
| A'Moo wrote: |
| LanGuTou wrote: |
| I don't consider buying the AT's tonnes of candy and food, going to a restaurant and being invited to a drinking game by two farmers who speak ZERO English, and talking to many people on the street to be "living within the confines of a very small box!" Planning a vacation to Lhasa or someplace down south for a few weeks is not a small box. Buying my DELTA books and reading them and planning to take Module One in a year or two is not a small box. Dinner in the nice restaurant is 60 RMB TOPS. This is a great life, and I am sure the more seasoned and cynical disagree. |
So you want to go to Lhasa.
That is not a cheap trip.You will blow 3500 easily.
If you want to go to Ti bet you need a special permit and is organized for the most part through goverment certified travel agencies who stipulate that you must take their organized tour.
These trips cost far more than anywhere else in China.
Yes I know of people doing it on there own but this year and most likely next year it will be difficult to get into Ti bet.
Even if you do get in by your self Lhasa accomodation is not cheap.
How long have you been in China? |
Ya know, I think this is clearly the case of someone who is good at finding bargains (me) encountering those who cannot. Maybe it is good karma, good chi, good vibes, whatever. For instance the Directors dropped by last night while I was doing laundry and gave me my Christmas presents in person. A huge box of apples and a large box of those fried twisty bread sticks. For example my r/t flight from LAX to PEK was $650 USD.
Maybe showing up at the train station in a suit was a good idea. Maybe going to most of my lessons wearing dress pants, a tie and dress shoes has a bearing on how I experience China. Maybe being polite, professional and 'put together' has some bearing on this.
{shrug}
Dunno. Don't care. I am tired of having discussions with 22 year olds which entail this:
Norwalk: "I am experiencing this in China."
Others: "NO YOU ARE NOT!"
I have grown weary of this dynamic within this thread, and have decided to not post to it anymore. Anything I write will be argued over and I am far beyond the point of explaining or justifying myself to anyone.
"I am not young enough to know everything." -- Oscar Wilde
Y'all have a good'un, ya'hear? |
Maybe if you wear your suit they will let you into tii bet no questions asked.  |
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norwalkesl
Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 366
Location: Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-China
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| Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| If someone has no savings and no family to help out, then working for 3,500 a month is a scary proposition. |
I suggest making some friends and building a social safety net. I contact via text or email several people on a regular basis. Should something catastrophic happen and I cannot access my account in China or the USA I can access them for help if I need to leave in a hurry. Make friends on Internet forums, from teachers you know, from coworkers and ex-coworkers. In the interim, save much of that 3,500. It is just like when one moves out after high school and we all had nothing. Building up your savings is the first priority. We all need to make it on our own and yes this is a scary proposition, this independence that the West asks of us.
Do some privates and save some cash.
Also remember that people like myself began life just like those broke 20 somethings, and that I have much less money saved up than you probably think I do. It is all about mindset.
Lastly, anyone who is willing to move across the planet to teach in another country is going to be head and shoulders above 95% of all people back home when it comes to being resilient, resourceful, independent and self-sufficient. Those here on ESL cafe can make do on 3500 a month, if anyone can.
P.S. Had solstice dumplings, 24 or so of them and cha' for 7 RMB. That is going to be all for me today. I am stuffed. |
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