Job Discussion Forums

Ben Round de Bloc · Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Posts: 1946

From time to time, the topic of being fluent in a language comes up on these forums.

Kurochan · Joined: 01 Mar 2003 Posts: 944 Location: China

Whereas my students think fluency consists of knowing lots of big words and knowing grammar rules, I think it consists of being to express yourself, with fluidity and communicative competence, on a wide variety of subjects. Some of my students know big words and grammar, but can't chat about anything except maybe "why Japan is bad" or "why joining WTO is good" (I'm in China, of course). By contrast, I met this Belgian girl who spoke English with a heavy accent, made a ton of grammatical errors, but could say ANYTHING (or explain what she meant, if she lacked certain specialized vocabulary). I'd say she's fluent, while my students are not.

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

Being able to communicate is a prerequisite for fluency.

for example: how many languages can you say

'Can I have a beer please'

waxwing · Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 719 Location: China

Yeah, it's really tough to define what fluency means. I sometimes whether this wouldn't be a good definition: Could you do a basic office administration job (e.g. secretary) based on your language skills? If not, you're not fluent. If yes, then you are.
I reckon it'll take me a minimum of a further year of intensive study of Russian (staying in country of course) to reach that level (about 10 months so far). I won't be anywhere near perfect, and my accent will still be very Johnny Foreigner, but I reckon I could do such a job at that point, and actually be productive.

My French never got quite that far (although it was close) because I never studied or practised seriously.

How about this one: you're fluent if you can chat up a girl in a loud disco or bar and get her to come back to your place. Arguably this is not a language skill .. Laughing

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

Maybe not a language skill. But it is a skill

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

Let's face it, not one single person in the world is fluent if it means that you are a master of a particular language. For example, my wife is fluent in her native English but could not give a business presentation on jute lined fluxation bearings.

So, I often encourage my students by telling them that they are already fluent in some situations in English i.e. they can cope completely in English in that situation without any breakdowns in communication and without putting undue strain on anyone they interact with. When they realise this, it really liberates some of them.

It also liberates me when I learn a new language. I've only been in Korea a month or so but I'm already fluent in asking for and understanding prices quoted to me. Beyond that, I'm useless or downright dangerous but I AM fluent in that one area so far and it encourages me which motivates me to extend my fluency into other areas.

Glenski · Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Posts: 12844 Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN

shmooj,

Don't you think you're being a big extreme?

Capergirl · Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:00 am Post subject:

I'd always thought "fluent" was the same as "working knowledge". That is to say that if you can easily understand and be understood by native speakers of the language, you are fluent. I consider some of my students, one of whom scored 815 on the TOEIC in February, to be fluent in English because they can carry on a conversation in English on many topics with relative ease and their comprehension is excellent. However, their writing skills still need a lot of work. How big a role does writing (and by the same token, reading) play in fluency?

Interesting topic. Cool

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

I think they often confuse FLUENCY with PROFICIENCY - at least in CHINA.

See that chap Li Yang's definition of "good" English?

It is when "you speak it as QUICKLY and as LOUDLY as possible..."

(It doesn't matter what you are saying, but say it you must, and fluently, please!)

gingermeggs · Joined: 29 Jan 2004 Posts: 162

To me it means being able to carry on a conversation without having to stop and mentally translate.

shmooj · Joined: 11 Sep 2003 Posts: 1758 Location: Seoul, ROK

hesterprynne · Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 386

How about...if you are fluent in my language, it is not a pain the arse for me to try to talk to you.

Lanza-Armonia · Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:45 pm Post subject:

waxwing · Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 719 Location: China

Well I gave my 'office job' example because I was trying to devise what good old 'Bert might have called an 'operational definition'.. you can't really use words like 'easy' or 'pleasant' or 'painful' if you want something objective.

I like gingermeggs' definition, but the problem with that is that it's kind of unbounded .. you might never reach a point where there is no area of vocab. that you'd need to translate, and I think that's a bit too strict as a definition.

Atlas · Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 662 Location: By-the-Sea PRC

With much respect to the good posters above, there's a difference between fluency and proficiency in certain aspects of a language. In my opinion if someone wields the term "fluent" it connotes a versatility in many language subjects, as well as understanding of reading, writing, speaking and listening. I hesitate to use fluent to refer to only one segment of a language, for example, oral taxi instructions.

My taxi Putongua is pretty good, downright accurate. But as soon as I give a direction in very good Chinese, the driver assumes I know the language and starts talking to me, and I don' t understand maybe 80% of what he asks. Is it fair to say I am fluent in taxi language? I think it would be misrepresenting my ability.

It's just my opinion but I wouldn't play too fast and loose with that word unless I had the skills to back it up. I have a degree in psychology but I don't go around calling myself a psychologist, and letting people think I have professional training/licensure in providing therapy.

I am however, fluent in the sexy ways of love.