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carl_00
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 82
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 Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:48 pm Post subject: China next....? Money??? |
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I finished my first year in Korea in December and I was unsure where to go next but I'm now leaning towards Xian, China. I saved good money in Korea so it'd be nice to continue that in China. I was earning 2.1m KRW in Korea which converts to around 12,500 CNY but, I just had a quick glance at some of the China job postings here and the salaries offered were around 2-5000 CNY! That's poor...but a few were a bit higher.
Basically, what is the common rate? What are your financial experiences -- do you save?? |
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rogerwallace
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Location: California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: rmb@approx 6.8/1 |
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I wouldn't take a job for less than 8000rmb but thats just me. Good universities can pay good (8000-15000) but you need to be degreed for the most part. With a legal work visa(Z), you can send home(USA) up to 70%. Yes, it's cheap to live in China and Chinese teachers make only 800-2000 but foreigners aren't Chinese, thats why a legal work visa is a "Foreign Expert" visa!
Keep looking, the schools that pay well are out there. Good luck! |
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gregmcd101
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Ireland (for now)
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| Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: China next....? Money??? |
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| carl_00 wrote: |
I finished my first year in Korea in December and I was unsure where to go next but I'm now leaning towards Xian, China. I saved good money in Korea so it'd be nice to continue that in China. I was earning 2.1m KRW in Korea which converts to around 12,500 CNY but, I just had a quick glance at some of the China job postings here and the salaries offered were around 2-5000 CNY! That's poor...but a few were a bit higher.
Basically, what is the common rate? What are your financial experiences -- do you save?? |
Gun for 8000. Living frugally you could save 6000 easy. Noone with half a brain works for less than 4,000. If you saw a job advertised at 2,000 I'd be flabbergasted. I've been here a few years and the smallest salary I am personally aware of anyone being paid is 3,500 - which sucked. Does Korea include accomodation / bills? If not factor that in as another 3-5 K (dependant on location).
As for Xi'an - I wouldn't go there - it is essentially a mix of all that is bad for FTs. Major tourist destination in a poor province, ergo salaries are low while prices are high |
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carl_00
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:19 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses. 6000+ saving p/month seems alright, but I'd prefer to have a bit of expendable cash each month. In Korea accommodation was paid for by the school and the bills were very cheap, gas obviously takes a hike in the winter but on average for the year I guess 80% of my salary was disposable. I saved good money without effort.
Well, it's nice to know there any some good jobs out there. As well as my degree and a year experience I may also have a CELTA certificate so I do hope I can aim up towards the 10,000 mark.
Thanks for the heads up on Xian gregmcd101, I don't have my heart set on one place but I'd obviously like somewhere nice...and warm. I'll maybe have to begin a new thread for that... |
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thessy
Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Xi'an
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:01 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure what Greg's assessment of Xi'an is based on, but it's certainly not based on having lived in Xi'an. This is one of the cheaper places to live in China because it is in a relatively 'poor' province. Unless you're dining at the restaurant right beside the Terracotta Warrior's, prices are lower than most places in the country (how could 8 million people of below average wealth live in Xi'an if prices were high?). FT salaries are on par with most any city in the country outside of the big three.
I like Xi'an, but it's far from perfect. It's more polluted than average, and it drops below freezing every day in winter so I wouldn't consider it warm - though farm warmer than some places to the North. |
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gregmcd101
Joined: 06 Jun 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Ireland (for now)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| thessy wrote: |
I'm not sure what Greg's assessment of Xi'an is based on, but it's certainly not based on having lived in Xi'an. This is one of the cheaper places to live in China because it is in a relatively 'poor' province. Unless you're dining at the restaurant right beside the Terracotta Warrior's, prices are lower than most places in the country (how could 8 million people of below average wealth live in Xi'an if prices were high?). FT salaries are on par with most any city in the country outside of the big three.
I like Xi'an, but it's far from perfect. It's more polluted than average, and it drops below freezing every day in winter so I wouldn't consider it warm - though farm warmer than some places to the North. |
my assessment was based on going there as a tourist so, could well be misguided. as a tourist i found it expensive, i guess not. however, whenever i have seen job ads for xi'an, the salaries do seem on the low side of average |
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Hadit
Joined: 17 Sep 2009
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| rogerwallace wrote: |
| Good universities can pay good (8000-15000) but you need to be degreed for the most part. |
Is there a list of good universities anywhere, or is it just aquired knowledge? I have never seen any advert for that much. Doesn't it also depend on location�where geographically are you referring to? |
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rogerwallace
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 66
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: list of universities on the internet |
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| chinese universities are not only listed but ranked. You can view them on line as well as universities by province or city. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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The best top tier universities are located in Beijing. The typical pay rates are 5000-6500 RMB a month + an additional 500-RMB for those with a master's degree and 750 extra for a PhD holder.
Peking University and T-University No#1 and No#2 ranked universities in China have had positions that pay higher up above 8000 RMB a month.
You need to look at a joint Western University program that preps students to study abroad. They are the ones with the higher salaries in the university settings.
In China teaching at the top universities is considered "an selfish act for the communist state." Prestige is the award, not money under the old Chinese mindset.
However, Chinese professors earn over 30,000 RMB a month plus kickbacks at these universities. Many Chinese teachers earn the same as FT's at many of the universities located in Beijing.
FT salaries are still at the 1990's levels in places like Beijing. |
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Totemic
Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 118
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: list of universities on the internet |
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| rogerwallace wrote: |
| chinese universities are not only listed but ranked. You can view them on line as well as universities by province or city. |
This statement is useless without a link. Link? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| carl_00 wrote: |
Thanks for the responses. 6000+ saving p/month seems alright, but I'd prefer to have a bit of expendable cash each month. In Korea accommodation was paid for by the school and the bills were very cheap, gas obviously takes a hike in the winter but on average for the year I guess 80% of my salary was disposable. I saved good money without effort.
Well, it's nice to know there any some good jobs out there. As well as my degree and a year experience I may also have a CELTA certificate so I do hope I can aim up towards the 10,000 mark.
Thanks for the heads up on Xian gregmcd101, I don't have my heart set on one place but I'd obviously like somewhere nice...and warm. I'll maybe have to begin a new thread for that... |
If you want more money for living expenses you can work privates in China without worrying about getting busted. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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You mentioned saving 6000 RMB a month, well most teaching salaries are around 6000 RMB a month. To save anything you need to take extra work and possibly build up a list of "privates" and earn money that way.
Some universities and private schools require more unpaid hours or hours that vary during the day. if you get one of these positions you will not be able to teach too many privates.
Privates range from a low 200-RMB an hour to 1000, depending on number of students and what you're teaching average is around 400-RMB an hour for size of 8-12.
The key is to find a low houred university position that has a set teaching period in a high demand area.
China does not pay the big bucks for ESL teachers, they don't even pay the big bucks for certified teachers with an advanced degree.
Korea is the top market for ESL, China doesn't even compare.
I hate to tell you this, but Korea for pay is a much better deal and Korea weeds out the riff-raff with their stricter teaching credential requirements.
Most that survive in China are retired or have some other income coming in besides their teaching salary. Chinese FT teaching salaries are a complete joke and often a seasoned qualified TESOL teacher will head to another country or back home after the Chinese experience wears off.
This is the sad truth. |
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carl_00
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
Korea is the top market for ESL, China doesn't even compare.
I hate to tell you this, but Korea for pay is a much better deal and Korea weeds out the riff-raff with their stricter teaching credential requirements. |
That's disappointing.
I'm not too impressed by these figures for China mainland but how do the places like Taiwan and Hong Kong compare? |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
China does not pay the big bucks for ESL teachers, they don't even pay the big bucks for certified teachers with an advanced degree.
Korea is the top market for ESL, China doesn't even compare.
I hate to tell you this, but Korea for pay is a much better deal |
I've worked in both korea and china and I always find these comparisons interesting. let's have a look at the standard esl jobs in the two countries:
A. Working Hours/Salary
typical university esl job in china:
1. 14-16 hours per week and between 5000-6000RMB/month.
2. That's ~ $750-$880/month.
3. On an hourly basis - RMB78-94/$12-14.
typical hagwon job in korea:
1. 30 hours per week and about 2.1 million won/month.
2. That's ~1800/month.
3. On an hourly basis about 17,500KRW/$15.
B. Some Intangibles
1. Freedom in the class. Most schools in china give you a timetable, a textbook and send you on your way. You can adapt the teaching material as you see fit and in many cases don't need to follow the textbook every class, if at all. if you find most of your students are worse than expected, dump the textbook and move on. as long as you show up every day on time, no hassles from anyone.
in korea you typically have to show up one hour early each day (not included in the 30 hours of class time). in some of these hagwons, the school owner is right there in the school, visits the classes, gives "advice" and (not being an education professional him/herself) often just gets in your way. we had to use the textbook every day, every class.
2. Free time and Outside Activities. Almost all university jobs in china offer copious amounts of free time, most people dont know what to do with it all. that includes two holiday periods of nearly two months each, with pay. For some, that free time translates into more travel, taking up one of many hobbies (tai chi, photography, et al), or finishing a degree, among other things. And while some Chinese cities have little character, others do, and the country itself has unlimited travel opportunities for those with free time.
Comparatively speaking, Korea has almost zilch to see (it is a small country though). I managed to visit Busan, Ulsan, and Seoul during my time there and they were devoid of anything but shops, restaurants, bars and shopping centres. Natural sites, parks, green space, beaches etc are few, and not easy to get to and enjoy with the limited free time in Korea.
At a Korean hagwon, you get one or two weeks of paid holiday and you get those once you finish your contract. and there are almost no days off for the entire length of the contract, other than weekends (unless your school opens on saturday and then there's those nearly useless Saturday morning meetings held once or twice a month.
3. Opportunities to earn extra money. Those working at uni jobs in china have plenty of opportunity to make money outside their real job. While this may be prohibited in some contracts, most schools know it happens and ignore it. other more up to date contracts state that outside work isn't prohibited but that the teacher assumes responsibility for any of their outside activities. Once you've networked a little bit a FT in China can easily add up to 50% to their monthly salary via private work.
Private work is illegal in Korea and violators are actively sought out and punished. The opportunities for private work are far less in Korea than in China.
| SnoopBot wrote: |
| Korea weeds out the riff-raff with their stricter teaching credential requirements. |
While they may have stricter requirements for getting the E-2 work visa in Korea (notarized copy of a degree to the consulate, not much more strict) than they do for getting a Z visa in China, that hardly weeds out the riffraff. Korea attracts mostly those under 35yoa and if the people I worked with and met in the bars on weekends were any indication, plenty of them have serious problems - mostly alcohol and an inability to get along with others, with a bit of drug use as well - I think that qualifies as riffraff. btw, fake degree holders and illegal ESL teachers existed in Korea when i was there, i'm sure they still do.
China has a higher proportion of older, more mature, and more experienced teachers that don't suffer the same problems. There are still plenty of losers in China, but in my estimation its no worse here than in Korea.
To summarize, while Korea may look better on the surface (higher monthly salary) a little bit of digging belies the myth that its the "top market for ESL." And anyone who says "China doesn't even compare" isn't aware of the Korean ESL workplace situation. Any FT in China, with a little bit of initiative, can do almost as well financially as anyone in Korea, and still have the other advantages that China has over Korea (which in my opinion, is almost everything else).
Since carl00 is in Korea now, he can make his own judgment and decide his next move accordingly.
Note: If any of what i've written above about Korea is incorrect, kindly correct me. its been a few years since I worked there but I do visit the Korea forum from time to time to have a look around, and it seems not a lot has changed. Other people's experiences may be different. |
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carl_00
Joined: 05 Jul 2008
Posts: 82
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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Good post.
But what's the deal with private academies in China, how are they?
I would agree with most of your remarks about Korea, but I would like to say that I found it a beautiful country. The cities are extremely dull though.
Korean hagwons vary. I've heard many unpleasant stories about them but I had a great workplace, no classroom interference and enough flexibility to introduce my own things but, due to the working hours you can be somewhat limited in what you can prepare for lessons. :/ |
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