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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Jayray wrote: |
| LanGuTou wrote: |
If you are young and a new graduate, you may get away with it providing your stay in China is only a year or two. Retired teachers, no problem. However, if you are in mid career and then return home, serious questions are going to be asked as to why you chose to be a teacher in a country with few professional ethics, low pay and no prospects. You would have to word your CV very carefully and make sure you have a damn good answer when you are interviewed.
An observation was given to me recently by a businessman that wants to establish a branch of his own company in China. I was offering consultancy. He believes that mid career people that come to China do so for these two reasons; they cannot hack it on the career ladder in their own country or they have met with an "accident" in their life (divorce, run into debt, bankruptcy etc.). Just consider that this is the way that someone maybe viewing you! |
This may be true in your part of the world, but not in mine. I found myself without a job at midcareer and went to China for continuity's sake. After two years, I was hired by another college. Most Americans know little-to-nothing about the Chinese educational system, Chinese ethics (except for what is reported in the media), the Foreign Teacher "culture" the FT experience, wages, living conditions or anything in that ballpark, so there's nothing to hide from a prospective employer. I know a professor and an assistant professor who couldn't get a toe hold in American academia after they graduated, so they taught in China for three and four years. One is now an assistant director of one university program; the other is the director of another university program. They gained valuable, professional experience which they could not have gotten in their own countries.
I agree that some of the sad sack FTs in China have met with misfortune at home and try to ride what is considered a gravy train in China. Some FTs That I have met were indeed sad cases, but their personal plights and their arrivals in China were symptomatic of something other than bad luck, unforeseeable misfortunes, etc.. |
Many of the Academia positions are based now on "political correctness."
Some fields a person must die before an opening comes up. The best bet here is to take a reduced paying position in a smaller rural area of the USA and maybe at a Community College.
Here in Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, tuition costs have went up 30-50% staff layoffs are happening almost on a monthly basis. Those in some type of union or tenured position are not even safe.
If this keeps up, the value to costs ratio of a college degree will not be worth it unless it's in the medical field or possibly Law to politician field.
Why get a PhD in some Arts or restricted Sciences and find out you must wait 20-years for an university teaching position, that's big bucks down the drain.
China still DOES not offer any competitive salaries or positions for western academics at the PhD or Doctorate levels. universities in Beijing will still pay 500-1000 RMB extra a month for such a person over the typical 4-year FT graduate.
The only chance a true PhD holder can move up in China is to run or partner a business or get with a joint university project. Many times fluency is required in Chinese for these positions. |
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vexed
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
This is true I hate to say, and here is the reason why (I was told this by my university teaching program staff here in the USA)
1. Most Chinese positions are Oral English- other skills not used and go rusty
2. China has zero professional development for teachers - teaching too long in China indicates possible skill set updates.
3. Most of the TESOL positions at legit and higher paying countries/institutions require things such as : Assessment, testing, program development, and teacher reflective feedback loops. China is all operated by the Chinese with limited ability on the FT's part to get involved in these areas or move into program admin.
Good paying positions outside of China will see long-term Chinese teaching as a possible "mode of fossilization" and unpolished skill sets.
The biggest threat is to those at the higher levels in the field such as PhD's, and MA's in TESOL.
I don't think those that are back packers will get hurt too much with long-term teaching in China. Most would not be accepted into any legit Western teaching position for obvious reasons anyway (not certified) so this fossilization problem hits those at the higher tiers.
Teaching in China for a long time was considered a "career killer" and this concept was mentioned to me by my University I graduated from (MAEd TESOL) and also here at the UCLA TESOL department.
China was specifically mentioned for reasons above. It's best to rotate out of China every so often for those that consider ESL/TESOL to be an actual career.
For those reading this, the better the diversity in overseas experience, the better chances of getting better positions in your host country. |
Many thanks for the heads up - I didn't realise China was viewed in such a negative light. I'm still in my early career period (2 years + CELTA) so I guess a couple of years isn't going to be too harmful for my overall teaching career. |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
just to be clear - in saying that the china experience is often viewed as a negative by employers "back home," due to unpolished skill sets, low standards in china, lack of professional development etc etc. . .
which employers back home are being referred to? employers in the education field only? or any employer (those not related to the education field)? i can accept that teaching experience in china might be considered a negative by those educational experts at home who know what it's like here, but not the latter (most other employers). |
I have spent the whole of this year plotting a way out of being a FT back into my previous career path - that being farming and food production. There are lots of opportunities in my field but I initially hit on a brick wall. From the summer onwards, I began to apply for positions using a CV that included my China teaching experience tarting it up as a chance to learn the language, business culture and research China based opportunities (all of which are a pretty accurate representation of why I took teaching positions in China). Not even a sniff of a reply!
I asked a few friends with senior level positions in the UK Food Production Sector why this might be. I was told that this mid career turn in career path would be a killer to any opportunity.
I quickly went into rethink mode and plotted a different route out of the problem. As I only work a relatively low number of hours per day, I actually paid an agency offering to find unpaid internships and took a job with a company in the same line of business. No salary but an opportunity to prove myself, get a job title, business cards and a reference. I eliminated any mention of teaching from my CV and, like magic, the interviews followed. Seamless career path equals opportunity. Coming to China has no influence but the work carried out here does.
I became an attractive proposition for certain people looking for China based representation. I have since gone through the process of registering my own consultancy business in China and there are plenty of opportunities. I am paid double my monthly salary as a FT PER DAY!
One thing that has struck me is as follows. I obviously don't mention anything about teaching when I am with clients but often eat with them. The topic of living in China is a common one around the table. I am taken back by the negative view of the FT community amongst people in industry and commerce be they foreign nationals or Chinese. |
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creztor
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
Posts: 476
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LanGuTou, very smart move there. I've thought of doing something similar and working in an area outside of teaching to get experience in other things while I am where I am. Well done and I hope things continue to go so well for you. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| creztor wrote: |
| LanGuTou, very smart move there. I've thought of doing something similar and working in an area outside of teaching to get experience in other things while I am where I am. Well done and I hope things continue to go so well for you. |
This is what you must do to insure you can have a savings account and real career development. Teaching for 5000-RMB a month and eating 8-RMB bowls of noodles so you can save a few hundred dollars a month is a complete utter joke.
Teaching can spring-board into a better career or opportunity, many foreigners started out as FT's until something better came around.
Teaching in China, even with the highest qualifications, is basically a dead-end endeavor. Your whole monthly teaching salary is the typical "one-time resteraunt business lunch bill", for those in the fast track careers.
The High School graduate that sorts mail at the US embassy, earns around 50K a year in China or 4K (28,000 RMB) or so a month just in salary not counting various stipends. Contrast that to a PhD holder from a 1st tier western university that earns 8,000 RMB a month.
Chinese teaching salaries will never go up to competitive levels due to the huge influx of back-packers, those without a degree and throngs of the unemployed heading to China.
Looking at the job openings on various sites, the teaching salaries are exactly the same as in 2002. Has inflation stayed the same?
The best teaching salary periods seemed to be in the late 90's, those days will never return.
Don't get me wrong, the China experience was interesting for me, however I do not think I could stay for the long term in China living or working in the typical FT environment. Maybe others could do this, my burn-out period hit me at my 5th year in China. |
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Jayray
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 373
Location: Back East
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| LanGuTou wrote: |
"...I have spent the whole of this year plotting a way out of being a FT back into my previous career path - that being farming and food production...
...I quickly went into rethink mode and plotted a different route out of the problem. As I only work a relatively low number of hours per day, I actually paid an agency offering to find unpaid internships and took a job with a company in the same line of business. No salary but an opportunity to prove myself, get a job title, business cards and a reference. I eliminated any mention of teaching from my CV and, like magic, the interviews followed. Seamless career path equals opportunity. Coming to China has no influence but the work carried out here does..."
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I think that your situation is a bit different from those who intend to return to their home countries to teach or perhaps to make a lateral move of some sort.
I assume that you provided a plausible explanation/substitute for the time that you spent in China as a teacher. (Your internship in China?). My experience in my country is that a one or two-year hole in one's resume is a job killer. The prospective employer can't know just what the prospective employee was doing during the time that is unaccounted for. Sure, one can provide an employer with a credit report that will indicate some sort of gainful employment because of continued credit and spending (unless he has been working as an FT in China) and the employer can (depending upon the state) obtain criminal records, but most employers are pretty suspicious of that hole in the resume and don't want to go through the trouble and expense of obtaining such reports.
I agree with you that stating that one is/was an FT in China can be a job killer in China because of the dim view which some Chinese take of "Foreign Experts".
For those returning to their home countries,however, stating that one has spent time in China as a teacher is better than a hole in one's personal time line, and it also commands a lot more respect than saying that one spent two years bagging groceries or pushing a broom. |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Jayray wrote: |
| LanGuTou wrote: |
"...I have spent the whole of this year plotting a way out of being a FT back into my previous career path - that being farming and food production...
...I quickly went into rethink mode and plotted a different route out of the problem. As I only work a relatively low number of hours per day, I actually paid an agency offering to find unpaid internships and took a job with a company in the same line of business. No salary but an opportunity to prove myself, get a job title, business cards and a reference. I eliminated any mention of teaching from my CV and, like magic, the interviews followed. Seamless career path equals opportunity. Coming to China has no influence but the work carried out here does..."
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I think that your situation is a bit different from those who intend to return to their home countries to teach or perhaps to make a lateral move of some sort.
I assume that you provided a plausible explanation/substitute for the time that you spent in China as a teacher. (Your internship in China?). My experience in my country is that a one or two-year hole in one's resume is a job killer. The prospective employer can't know just what the prospective employee was doing during the time that is unaccounted for. Sure, one can provide an employer with a credit report that will indicate some sort of gainful employment because of continued credit and spending (unless he has been working as an FT in China) and the employer can (depending upon the state) obtain criminal records, but most employers are pretty suspicious of that hole in the resume and don't want to go through the trouble and expense of obtaining such reports.
I agree with you that stating that one is/was an FT in China can be a job killer in China because of the dim view which some Chinese take of "Foreign Experts".
For those returning to their home countries,however, stating that one has spent time in China as a teacher is better than a hole in one's personal time line, and it also commands a lot more respect than saying that one spent two years bagging groceries or pushing a broom. |
In my experience, I think that career turns of this nature are a killer regardless of whether it is in China or your own homeland.
I don't want to say too much for fear of blowing my own cover here as this is a public forum.
I did not take an internship that involved making coffee or pushing a broom. I agreed certain parameters with the manager of the company whereby I had flexibility of hours (working around the teaching hours) and freedom to help them develop their overseas market. In return, they were expected to help me in pursuing my desired career path. Win, win! The manager of that company (a Chinese national) is now a close friend and he confides in me lots of information and personal connections that have helped me develop my own business plans. I will carry on helping him to develop his overseas market in return for his support and help (invaluable). |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
China still DOES not offer any competitive salaries or positions for western academics at the PhD or Doctorate levels. universities in Beijing will still pay 500-1000 RMB extra a month for such a person over the typical 4-year FT graduate.
The only chance a true PhD holder can move up in China is to run or partner a business or get with a joint university project. Many times fluency is required in Chinese for these positions. |
Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
This is a very curious statement. Tell us more. Where is this department? What affiliations does this department have? What kind of work do they do? Which department is this? Who is paying their salaries and research subsidies? How many such foreign economists are on such a payment plan? And so on.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
China still DOES not offer any competitive salaries or positions for western academics at the PhD or Doctorate levels. universities in Beijing will still pay 500-1000 RMB extra a month for such a person over the typical 4-year FT graduate.
The only chance a true PhD holder can move up in China is to run or partner a business or get with a joint university project. Many times fluency is required in Chinese for these positions. |
Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
Yes, please tell us those PhD or master's degree holders teaching English that earn 500K RMB a year.
Are they super special to command 500K a year teaching English (which was the gist of my post above)
Remember, you're not dealing with someone who spent 1-year in China, living in a 2nd tier city without any teaching qualifications and advanced degree.
Please enlighten us where those 500K a year FT research positions are    |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
This is a very curious statement. Tell us more. Where is this department? What affiliations does this department have? What kind of work do they do? Which department is this? Who is paying their salaries and research subsidies? How many such foreign economists are on such a payment plan? And so on.
Regards,
fat_chris |
These positions are Expat positions hired directly from a western country that has an office in China. i.e. Micro$oft
Many of the US embassy positions pay 100K a year, which is around 700K RMB a year. THESE are not the typical rinky-dink FT positions we are talking about in this thread.
FT positions are disgraceful for monetary benefits ..period.. regardless of degree, experience and qualifications. Differences of an extra 1000-RMB a month for a PhD holder contrasted to the average 4-year or no degree holder is based on the concept of slave wages and Chinese styled old communist pedagogy.
I'm sure he must be talking about these "real career jobs" and not working at EF or the local McEnglish corner. |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
China still DOES not offer any competitive salaries or positions for western academics at the PhD or Doctorate levels. universities in Beijing will still pay 500-1000 RMB extra a month for such a person over the typical 4-year FT graduate.
The only chance a true PhD holder can move up in China is to run or partner a business or get with a joint university project. Many times fluency is required in Chinese for these positions. |
Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
Yes, please tell us those PhD or master's degree holders teaching English that earn 500K RMB a year.
Are they super special to command 500K a year teaching English (which was the gist of my post above)
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You said ANY western academics or phd holders. Like I said, that's a very strong statement. My school's law program has a foreign dean that is, I'm sure, making at least a million rmb a year. So I have clearly rebutted your statement.
Now, if instead you mean to say that these positions are uncommon, I would agree with you. I would also agree that for someone with a phD in applied linguistics or English literature, almost all positions available in china for foreigners will not pay very well.
That being said, there are applied programs that pay quite well for people with specialized skills and are also willing to teach English. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| Where is this department? What affiliations does this department have? What kind of work do they do? Which department is this? Who is paying their salaries and research subsidies? How many such foreign economists are on such a payment plan? |
Mikeylikesit114,
Any chance that you could answer some of my questions? Thanks in advance.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| fat_chris wrote: |
| fat_chris wrote: |
| Where is this department? What affiliations does this department have? What kind of work do they do? Which department is this? Who is paying their salaries and research subsidies? How many such foreign economists are on such a payment plan? |
Mikeylikesit114,
Any chance that you could answer some of my questions? Thanks in advance.
Regards,
fat_chris |
Hi Chris, I'd rather not publish my colleagues names and salaries here, for obvious reasons. Suffice it to say that there are several universities in China that hire western trained economics and finance faculty at competitive salaries, given local living costs. |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| Hi Chris, I'd rather not publish my colleagues names and salaries here, for obvious reasons. Suffice it to say that there are several universities in China that hire western trained economics and finance faculty at competitive salaries, given local living costs. |
Got it. Thanks.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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