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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Posts: 4946
Location: Blabbing
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 Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="SnoopBot"]
| vexed wrote: |
| Chinese teachers working at places like New Oriental School in Beijing doing exam prep earn 10,000+ RMB a month. |
Hit me like a tone of bricks after 5 years at the same school. LOL
That's why I make so much money.
I work at New Oriental Foreign Language Institute.
LOL~~ so much!
Yes, this franchise is very intensive indeed and not for the faint of heart. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
China still DOES not offer any competitive salaries or positions for western academics at the PhD or Doctorate levels. universities in Beijing will still pay 500-1000 RMB extra a month for such a person over the typical 4-year FT graduate.
The only chance a true PhD holder can move up in China is to run or partner a business or get with a joint university project. Many times fluency is required in Chinese for these positions. |
Actually, this is demonstrably wrong. "any" is a pretty strong word my friend, in a country of 1.5 billion. There are foreign economists in my department making well over 500,000 rmb a year, plus housing and research subsidies. |
Yes, please tell us those PhD or master's degree holders teaching English that earn 500K RMB a year.
Are they super special to command 500K a year teaching English (which was the gist of my post above)
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You said ANY western academics or phd holders. Like I said, that's a very strong statement. My school's law program has a foreign dean that is, I'm sure, making at least a million rmb a year. So I have clearly rebutted your statement.
Now, if instead you mean to say that these positions are uncommon, I would agree with you. I would also agree that for someone with a phD in applied linguistics or English literature, almost all positions available in china for foreigners will not pay very well.
That being said, there are applied programs that pay quite well for people with specialized skills and are also willing to teach English. |
Ok I will play along, Why does China pay big bucks to Law School graduates from a non-chinese university who passed the bar exams outside of China? I know Chinese EXPAT lawyers that went to Berkeley LAW School and that don't command these huge packages.
Let's see, since I taught both at Peking University and Qindao (Tsingtao) which are rated #1 and #2 for the top tier universities in China, I should have at least met or discovered such people at these universities. My other experience is with the top 20 ranked Beijing universities including a MBA program and one international IB school. You would think I would have met such elite people at those top rated schools, right?
I've met some that were paid salaries in EXPAT positions (not typical Chinese hires) I also know that the PhD holding Chinese citizen professors would scream bloody murder if some foreigner held a top position commanding 500K + RMB a month.
Yes folks this doesn't happen and only those top universities have those high salary scales.
The must then:
1. Be paid an EXPAT salary or stipend from a joint-venture institution,
2. Have some type of consultation position paid via a private company outside of typical academia.
3. They must be fluent in Chinese or close to it.
No University is going to promote foreigners to key positions and pay them higher than the brightest Chinese degree holders with connections to the government.
If this is true, this position and pay is NOT inside the university circuit and is connected to some type of big industry like Exports, Oil, or International Trade.
We must be honest here, the website is called "Dave's ESL" and if you can honestly show me that these positions exist in the ESL academia settings that most westerners experience, I'll eat my words. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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| I know of joint-venture programs with western universities where the instructors are paid in the neighborhoods of 300k RMB per year ... that is, 25k RMB per month. Housing and utilities are provided as part of the package. But they are teaching business-related topics, not English per se. And they must have MBAs or PhDs and western university teachinhg experience. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| I know of joint-venture programs with western universities where the instructors are paid in the neighborhoods of 300k RMB per year ... that is, 25k RMB per month. Housing and utilities are provided as part of the package. But they are teaching business-related topics, not English per se. And they must have MBAs or PhDs and western university teachinhg experience. |
Yes, this is true I had one of these positions in 2006. These are the good positions and I have a MBA. They wanted a PhD holder and I was at the right place/right time to get that position.
These are very rare to get in China. The professors are brought in from abroad and most of their salary is paid from their host institution not from the Chinese University.
I had to travel back to the USA for my interview, at the University of Texas, after I made the short-list. These are uncommon positions and require a MBA or higher and some teaching degree/experience.
Often they require Fortune 500 experience too, most of these positions go to PhD holders.
For the typical FT posting or reading these threads here on Dave's, most positions are 5000-8000 RMB a month with 8000 being for those with a MAEd in TESOL or Applied Linguistics.
Those are the common and typical positions found 99% of the time. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="The Great Wall of Whiner"]
| SnoopBot wrote: |
| vexed wrote: |
| Chinese teachers working at places like New Oriental School in Beijing doing exam prep earn 10,000+ RMB a month. |
Hit me like a tone of bricks after 5 years at the same school. LOL
That's why I make so much money.
I work at New Oriental Foreign Language Institute.
LOL~~ so much!
Yes, this franchise is very intensive indeed and not for the faint of heart. |
Yes, these positions were the best for Chinese teachers too. My wife worked for them in 2007 |
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Mikeylikesit114
Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| SnoopBot wrote: |
Ok I will play along, Why does China pay big bucks to Law School graduates from a non-chinese university who passed the bar exams outside of China? I know Chinese EXPAT lawyers that went to Berkeley LAW School and that don't command these huge packages.
Let's see, since I taught both at Peking University and Qindao (Tsingtao) which are rated #1 and #2 for the top tier universities in China, I should have at least met or discovered such people at these universities. My other experience is with the top 20 ranked Beijing universities including a MBA program and one international IB school. You would think I would have met such elite people at those top rated schools, right?
I've met some that were paid salaries in EXPAT positions (not typical Chinese hires) I also know that the PhD holding Chinese citizen professors would scream bloody murder if some foreigner held a top position commanding 500K + RMB a month.
Yes folks this doesn't happen and only those top universities have those high salary scales.
The must then:
1. Be paid an EXPAT salary or stipend from a joint-venture institution,
2. Have some type of consultation position paid via a private company outside of typical academia.
3. They must be fluent in Chinese or close to it.
No University is going to promote foreigners to key positions and pay them higher than the brightest Chinese degree holders with connections to the government.
If this is true, this position and pay is NOT inside the university circuit and is connected to some type of big industry like Exports, Oil, or International Trade.
We must be honest here, the website is called "Dave's ESL" and if you can honestly show me that these positions exist in the ESL academia settings that most westerners experience, I'll eat my words. |
So, you are calling me a liar, simply because you may have worked in haidian at one point and you think you know something about beida's internal politics. Well...they could fill books with what you don't know.
And as far as these jobs "existing in the esl academia settings that most westerners experience", you can just shut the eff up. You said that there are no high paying jobs for western academics in china. I have proven you wrong. For instance, you can go to the American Economics Association's website and look under the job postings there. You will find at least 2 Chinese Universities have posted advertisements for economics and finance tenure-track faculty. If you know anything about those fields, you will realize that those jobs do not pay peanuts.
I'm done with you. |
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drjtrekker
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
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On sorta side note,
Just to offer a glim light of hope for this discussion. 2 thoughts.
My old boss, dean of the english dept. which included the ESL teachers, thought that if i went to china for a couple of years teaching that that would be good work experience for a prospective ESL teacher (ME) at the college i had worked for (i was in management at the time and did not teach). He liked the idea of getting work experience with foreign students besides just the teaching experience. culture, how to deal with foreign students, etc. Good for ESL teachers, eh?
so maybe not all employers in ed. think its a waste.
Another is a fellow I met from BJ. He and his girl had lived there for a few years, learning the language. Said he was planning to get a job with a local company doing the english language side of the job, like a law clerk, or something. His girl had just got a job with a chinese insurance company.
Said she would make decent money, and the field he was looking at would to. Said those jobs were there.
so maybe not all chinese employers will want particular skills besides languages.
anyways, thats all i know on the subject, but the latter sounds quite enticing if u wanna work a reg. job, and the former for those desirous teachers.
my 2 jiao.
jd |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| I have proven you wrong. |
Mikeylikesit114,
I'm gonna chime in now...again.
Sorry to say, but you haven't really proven anyone wrong. This is why I asked for those details previously, and you didn't respond with any.
If you look back at your posts, you've provided no hard facts or information and have only made some hazy and vague statements that don't shed light on the subject at hand.
I think Zero and SnoopBot's posts are on the mark. Those high paying positions at Chinese universities are very likely being paid by outside sources.
But hey, I would love to be proven wrong. Just give us some details please to give some credibility to your statements.
Regards,
fat_chris |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikeylikesit114 wrote: |
| SnoopBot wrote: |
Ok I will play along, Why does China pay big bucks to Law School graduates from a non-chinese university who passed the bar exams outside of China? I know Chinese EXPAT lawyers that went to Berkeley LAW School and that don't command these huge packages.
Let's see, since I taught both at Peking University and Qindao (Tsingtao) which are rated #1 and #2 for the top tier universities in China, I should have at least met or discovered such people at these universities. My other experience is with the top 20 ranked Beijing universities including a MBA program and one international IB school. You would think I would have met such elite people at those top rated schools, right?
I've met some that were paid salaries in EXPAT positions (not typical Chinese hires) I also know that the PhD holding Chinese citizen professors would scream bloody murder if some foreigner held a top position commanding 500K + RMB a month.
Yes folks this doesn't happen and only those top universities have those high salary scales.
The must then:
1. Be paid an EXPAT salary or stipend from a joint-venture institution,
2. Have some type of consultation position paid via a private company outside of typical academia.
3. They must be fluent in Chinese or close to it.
No University is going to promote foreigners to key positions and pay them higher than the brightest Chinese degree holders with connections to the government.
If this is true, this position and pay is NOT inside the university circuit and is connected to some type of big industry like Exports, Oil, or International Trade.
We must be honest here, the website is called "Dave's ESL" and if you can honestly show me that these positions exist in the ESL academia settings that most westerners experience, I'll eat my words. |
So, you are calling me a liar, simply because you may have worked in haidian at one point and you think you know something about beida's internal politics. Well...they could fill books with what you don't know.
And as far as these jobs "existing in the esl academia settings that most westerners experience", you can just shut the eff up. You said that there are no high paying jobs for western academics in china. I have proven you wrong. For instance, you can go to the American Economics Association's website and look under the job postings there. You will find at least 2 Chinese Universities have posted advertisements for economics and finance tenure-track faculty. If you know anything about those fields, you will realize that those jobs do not pay peanuts.
I'm done with you. |
LOL Did I hit a raw nerve? Yes, when you mention that foreigners can run academic programs in China (not joint-university projects) that command 500K a year which is higher than the star Chinese professors, I will not "believe such hype." This does not mean calling you a liar, it's does mean more facts are needed and possibly you got your information for a source that embellished these positions. That doesn't make you a liar but makes these facts "slightly hazy" because other FT's are going to see 500K salaries and wonder why they only see 5000-8000 RMB salary ranges regardless if PhD or MA TESOL.
Foreigners do not get power positions at Chinese institutions, they do get job positions that are EXPAT or via some company position. That generally is the rule 99% of the time.
You must remember why some of us might be skeptical and challenge your posting. I have a real teaching degree and a good MBA. I've worked at the best universities in China with a 7-year tour in Beijing. My university sent me to China to complete a research thesis project for my practicum. That was my first experience in China. My wife is Chinese and also a teacher, some of her relatives are professors in Beijing. Those connections were more valuable than any degree or experience I had- Guanx rules in China.
We invested in business and real estate, her family is wealthy and currently own properties here in LA that we just purchased. I'm not a 20-year old backpacker with a photoshop degree. I teach in the UCLA University Education system right now.
Wouldn't you think i would have seen a large amount of foreigners with top tier positions in China after 7-years? Did some things change in the last year. I've met lawyers in China, with a few actually disbarred in their host countries and a few others consulting big oil companies for oil contracts. They possibly made those salaries BUT had nothing to do with FT's or TESOL.
Remember, this is Dave's ESL , it is not accurate to put false information about 500K teaching salaries in the ESL world. The only people that could get close that that amount would be the actual owners of a training school located in an upscale area with hundreds of students.
We do know training school owners, a few friends run English centers around Beijing, we did a empirical research market study and found 500K is possible for a training school.
Again, these are not your typical FT bound positions. If I didn't pick apart your post about 500K academia ESL position or any position, someone else with a good education and experience in China would have.
I know Chinese that earn 100K RMB a week, but that has NOTHING to do with ESL or typical positions found for FT's in China.
Let's be honest to the readers here. |
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Moon Over Parma
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: Re: The Job Market |
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| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Has anyone noticed that the job market is much less than a few years ago?
I remember putting out my C.V. back in the mid 2000's and my in-box would get swamped with offers.
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This is true. You are not alone. I have friends in a similar position.
| Quote: |
| Or is the economy truly that bad that the jobs are less and there are more teachers to choose from? |
You're on to something. Also, the RMB has increased in value for some places. |
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SnoopBot
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 740
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: The Job Market |
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| Moon Over Parma wrote: |
| The Great Wall of Whiner wrote: |
Has anyone noticed that the job market is much less than a few years ago?
I remember putting out my C.V. back in the mid 2000's and my in-box would get swamped with offers.
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This is true. You are not alone. I have friends in a similar position.
| Quote: |
| Or is the economy truly that bad that the jobs are less and there are more teachers to choose from? |
You're on to something. Also, the RMB has increased in value for some places. |
Thousands of recently laid-off teachers exist here in the USA. Some are looking at various teaching abroad positions, add them to the non-teacher groups , well you can see they really don't need to advertise positions anymore or respond to job seekers. It would be interesting to see how many foreigners would be attending this year's Beijing job fair. |
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Zero
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 1402
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:41 am Post subject: |
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I'd still maintain that the increase in potential China EFLers will be small. Of all the unemployed career teachers in the U.S. -- and unemployed people from other fields as well, for that matter -- how many would be willing and able to go to China? I'd say the number would be tiny. Even of those willing to work overseas, only a very small percentage would be likely to find China acceptable. Spain or France, maybe, but probably not China -- especially when they start encountering salary offers of 5,000 RMB a month.
I'd say that tightness in the FT labor market has a lot more to do with the demand side than the supply. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| Zero wrote: |
| I'd still maintain that the increase in potential China EFLers will be small. Of all the unemployed career teachers in the U.S. -- and unemployed people from other fields as well, for that matter -- how many would be willing and able to go to China? I'd say the number would be tiny. Even of those willing to work overseas, only a very small percentage would be likely to find China acceptable. Spain or France, maybe, but probably not China -- especially when they start encountering salary offers of 5,000 RMB a month. |
i agree with everything you've posted above. aside from the ones who may have been about to retire, it would seem that many/most of these newly unemployed teachers in the US would have considerations at home that would prevent or discourage them from coming to work in China. those considerations might include (but not limited to) a debt load or family responsibilities. |
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Moon Over Parma
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 819
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The Ever-changing Cleric wrote: |
i agree with everything you've posted above. aside from the ones who may have been about to retire, it would seem that many/most of these newly unemployed teachers in the US would have considerations at home that would prevent or discourage them from coming to work in China. those considerations might include (but not limited to) a debt load or family responsibilities. |
I agree. Then there's the fact that some of these qualified teachers could easily transition some of their specialties (sciences, foreign languages, maths) to other western countries with a demand.
I laughed when someone brought up the "flood" of qualified, foreign teachers flooding the Beijing job fairs. The poster forgot that there's still 99% of the other provinces with thousands of positions on all levels in public and private institutions. Even with the minority willing to give a run to China, there will still be an overwhelming demand for native speakers in most of China. They also forget that there are school districts all over America in desperate need for teachers. Relocating across America versus across the world, for lower paying work, far removed from relatives and their culture of birth, as well as any potential uptick in the market: it is just illogical and not going to be a reality. If I was a gambling man I'd bet the bank on this.
I think if that science fiction scenario of a "flood" of qualified teachers were to come overseas, most would hit Japan, Hong Kong, South Korea and more hospitable, relatively less censor-prone and third world than mainland China. This would then force the long timers with less qualifications wanting to stay abroad over to China. Even then, it's doubtful this would ever happen. |
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Renegade_o_Funk
Joined: 06 Jun 2009
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by Renegade_o_Funk on Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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