Job Discussion Forums

[Chairman Roberto]

Hello...this is my first post, regarding my first job in China...

Currently, I'm very much enjoying my job at the Teacher's Normal College in Jishou, Hunan. Never heard of Jishou? Neither had I when I applied for the job. Suffice to say it's 8 hours from the middle of nowhere.

I am curious about anyone's experience with that infamous rotgut known as bai jiu. ("White wine"? Dude, this ain't no vintage from the Napa Valley). Maybe it's known as mao tai in your neck of the woods. Anyway, I refuse to drink the stuff. It smells like propane, with a taste to match. I mean, I like to kick back with a few pings of pijiu and just relax. I am DEFINITELY not into drinking myself into a stupor, to wake up the next morning feeling like I got run over by the Beijing-Shanghai express train. Yet as many of you already know, this is how the Chinese drink.

I just don't get it. Does the concept of enjoying moderate drinking exist in China? I've talked to a good many men who admit to me they can't stand bai jiu, but they're pressured into drinking nonetheless, usually from higher officials who insist on constant toasting. I mean, it's like being back in college, binge drinking with funnels at your local 10 keg party. Me, I'm too old for that nonsense....it was fun when I was 20, but I'm 32 now and my liver has said "enough."

I've already been to several dinners and banquets where I've been put under high pressure to drink. Hey, if they were serving up a decent rum & coke or gin & tonic, I'll drink up. But I'll pass on that revolting bai jiu, thank you very much. In the past I've told my hosts I'm allergic to alcohol, or some other lie. But at the last function, I was just fed up with this juvenile peer pressure straight out of some bad 7th grade health class film. I mean, I just wanted to scream at these people, "Grow up!!" So, I just flat out refused it. No, I don't want to drink. Sorry.

My stance is this: I'll speak the language, I'll eat the food (most of it, anyway), I'll do my best to fit in. But I won't drink that crap. I think I've offended some people with my refusal to toast with bai jiu (they weren't satisfied with my raised glass of beer or tea), but at this point I don't care.

My question is this: Will my boycott of bai jiu destroy my guanxi in the future? Will other men think of me as less "manly", and lose their respect for me? Is this a significant concern at all?

I figure in the long run, I'll have a group of friends who will judge me by the quality of our friendship, not by how many shots of bai jiu I can drink until I vomit and pass out. I hope I'm not being too idealistic.

I would be grateful for comments...

just lookin' for a buzz,
Roberto
Jishou, Hunan

[gerard]

Robert===As for social drinking here I have not had the same experience. Maybe in this province (the one south of Shanghai) they are a bit more moderate. True though they don't really look at beer as alcohol-I have actually been offered it between classes. When we go for dinners or "feasts" wine and beer are pretty much your only choice. One night I asked for milk and was given beer anyway...And there are a lot of toasts and a lady hovering over you waiting for you to take a sip so she can fill er up. But they cut it off at a cerain point. Usually I am getting into the spirit of things the booze is swept away and you are expected to eat some rice and go home. Actually I wish they drank more here. With the general stress and big classes and whatnot I actually WANT to get hammered sometimes.

As for that white booze I hear you loud and clear. I had a bottle of that in a hotel when I first got here. Like you say it smells like gas and tastes even worse. I was afraid to drink it. Thankfully they havent had this at our dinners. Lastly I would like to check out some local bars but there are no expats in this town and the Chinese can't understand why I want to do such a thing. Need to work on survival Mandarin...

[scot47]

Is there no tradition of Temperance or Total Abstinence in China ? There must be people who do not drink for one reason or another.

Find out more about the local tradition of not drinking and liken yourself to them ?

I speak as a friend of Bill Wilson.

[Seth]

I think drinking is important to Chinese men, especially in the more inland areas. I've never seen a banquet where the baijiu wasn't flowing. They believe that alcohol brings out your true nature, and if you don't drink with them it shows that you are not comfortable with them. The times I have drank with them I formed some close relationships. Once I attended a small banquet put on by a wealthy student, where we drank bottles of something that were 300 yuan each. I walked away from the banquet with 400 yuan worth of tea and more guanxi than I could shake a stick at. I say grin (or wince and wretch) and bear it. It's some weird male bonding thing. Baijiu hen lihai!

[Roger]

Quite interesting everybody's observations, may I add my own ones?

I have the same inkling that the inland areas are more traditional drinking realms for men. I suppose it's the way for Chinese men who have bottled-up feelings that they can never show to unwind and to let themselves go. Their behaviour also changes noticeably, not for the better if I may add my pesonal judgment!
The Chinese don't know booze too well. They call anything "jiu", mistranslated as "wine" even if it is beer ('pijiu"0 or their traditional rice wine (Maotai is their most famous rice liquor brand).
In bigger cities, they have over the past 5 years or so learnt to appreciate real wine, usually imported from France (see the many Bordeaux!) or Spain (Torres) and Australian wines besides their own ones (Great Wall, Huadong, Dynasty, Tsingtao, all made with European partners).
I often say "give me REAL wine, and I will drink you under the table!" Of course, they can't afford a bottle of good Bordeaux (at 400 to 3000 RMB!), so I walk out of their banquet without having drunk their baijiu.
But it is not always possible to abstain. I simulate a lot. Beware of the "GANBEI" (literally "dry glass", we would translate "bottoms up"). Just take a sip.

I don't know if Chinese men can stomach a lot more than ourselves. On the other hand, I havee seen more drunks in Xinjiang than anywhere else except, perhaps, in Russia!

[arioch36]

I agree with Seth and Roger, it is much more of an "inland" thing. I do my own surveys, and usually find that most of the men in Henan don't like bai jiu...found the same thing when traveling in trains.
Last New Year (Jan 1st) I allowed myself to drink lots of bai jiu. Yes it raised my reputation. Many of the leaders now drink water...maybe they dring three small cups of bai jiu, this can be hard to escape, but then they switch to water. But frankly, to me (and many overseas companies) guanxi is an overblown myth. It is often more talk then substance.

To answer the original question, you can do quite well for your self without drinking bai jiu or smoking. Chinese are not that simple or stupid. On the other hand, it may be hard for them to tell the difference between the expected polite refusals and a sincere refusal. So sometimes it is best to inform the person ahead of time that you don't drink, or that you only drink pijiu.
This said, as Seth mentioned, when ever you partake in another persons vice or pleasure, whether it is drinking, polo, golfing, whatever, it does create a kind of bond. This is true in any country. This is how many people brown-nose, by pretending to like whatever their boss likes. But you can do quite well in China without drinking the bai jiu. I would suggest that the best way out is to tell the person who invites you to the dinner that you don't drink heavy liquor, and ask that person to help you out of the situation. Ask that person if they can fill your cup with water instead, or whatever. Still, 3 small cups of bai jiu is a standard to start things.

[Redfivestandingby]

Guanxi is only for Chinese. As a foreigner, you cannot have guanxi. So don't worry about offending them by not drinking that horrible stuff!

Also some Chinese have drinking tricks so that they don't have to drink a lot of the stuff. For example, they'll drink the glass but not swallow. Some time later they'll spit it out in some other glass of water, handkerchief, etc...

[senor boogie woogie]

Hola!

I do not drink bai jiu (or mao tai) either. It has a nasty sweet smell. I don't even like being near a glass of it. It stinks!

I lived in a city where I was the only foreigner around. I have been to countless dinners and functions where I am the only laowai around. What I find annoying in the "ganbei" toasts. I love beer, but I cannot guzzle it like water. Sometimes, i am with my wife at a dinner, and I just want to "kick it", just sit there, relax and talk, and these clowns want to ganbei me and get me drunk! I think a lot of the time, is that as a lone foreigner, I am an "honored guest" even though I may know them personally. They also know that by and large, I have trouble communicating with them, so this is their way of being friendly.

I got really drunk and sick drinking brown "rice" wine one evening at a dinner, and was so wasted I was comparing my wife to Jesus Christ. Needless to say, the next day was a painful one.

Chinese do things in groups, which includes boozing. If you are ever in Korea drink something called "makali", which is a milky rice wine. That's a good drink, although it is hangover city.

SENOR

[taiwan boy]

[HappyTown]

I haven't found many Chinese here (Zhejiang) who are big drinkers...the one's who visit the bars popular with ex-pats mostly drink tea..bai-jiu gets knocked back at important dinners, but they do always end rather abruptly and without drunkenness...i found S. Korea to be a much more hard drinking country than this part of China, but i like to knock back a few myself, so maybe I am in the wrong province.

[Chairman Roberto]

I whole-heartedly agree with Taiwan Boy with regards to the cultivation of liquor culture in the West and the cultivation of tea culture here. The Chinese do know their tea. The tea here is outstanding, and I can't wait to try the countless varieties. One of my students assures me that his hometown is famous for its tea...can't wait to sample that hype...

I'm currently teaching three American culture classes, and I plan to do a class on drinking. Has anyone done this before? Ideally, I would love to haul in bottles of Cuervo, Bombay Sapphire, Grey Goose, and Jack Daniels, (and their requiste mixers) and start off the lecture with "This is how jiu is SUPPOSED to taste like!!" Of course, that plan will probably result in alot of broken bottles in transit.

I have another alcoholic gripe about my otherwise loveable town. All the Tsingtao beer here is fake!! Arggh! During my first visit to China, I was in Nanjing, and I really enjoyed Tsingtao. I think it's halfway decent, and I occassionally bought it in the States. So, I was all ready to drink up here...but after one swig, I realized this ain't Tsingtao. I mean, this swill makes Budweiser seem like a stout. It's sporting a Tsingtao label, with a "2000" added on, but it's godawful. I can't believe even the BEER gets pirated here. And there's no where in town I can get the real thing. I'm hoping I can find real Tsingtao in the capital, Changsha. Wish me luck.

Thanx for your great comments, as mixed as they were...I'm just as confused as I was when I wrote my first post. I just gotta be me...and continue to refuse the bai jiu, consequences be damned. Interestingly enough, my college president doesn't drink at all, and I'm sure he doesn't have any guanxi problems.

GANBEI, and don't forget that aspirin and water before you crash out!

Chairman Roberto

P.S. The booze may be bad, but EVERYONE knows Hunan food is the best in China. So, life is good...

[MW]

Drinking, toasting and drunkenness are definately an inland thing not found commonly in the coastal or Southern warmer climes.

Remember, North of the Yellow River you get heat in winter but South of it you freeze your ass off in winter, fall and even spring, in many areas.

Drinking serves as an internal heater because it is so much cheaper than electricity.

A man's thing? Maybe in public but in the home the women drink in private. Female party leaders also drink heavily in public, it shows they have cahones to serve the party as well as any man.

My excuse is that I have a "kidney problem" and to drink is to die - a little white lie! This restraint also brings respect because I pretend I miss the junk.

Guanxi for locals only? If you think that then you do not understand the term. It stands for corruption based upon friendship and is the universal grease that makes every wheel in China turn. It was applied to create the very position yuopu hold as a Foreign Expert at your school. You owe your job to it!

[Roger]

Chairiman Roberto,
I doubt you were drinking fake Tsingtao in Nanjing or anywhere! What you probably were drinking was a beer from a local brewerey that had been acquired by Tsingtao during their famous buying spree a couple of years ago.
Even Shenzhen produces Tsingtao now - and it tastes different to the beer from Qingdao.
How would Tsingtao ship their beer from their home base to far-away inland markets? Impossible, considering the logistics! Mergers and acquisitions is the answer.
You will also have noticed that CARLSBERG brewed in Guangdong does not taste like the original CARLSBERG, nor does BUDWEISER taste like BUD.
In 1995, there was a huge development of microbreweries in big cities. The breweries were imported from Germany, and for some time they were really making big money, a mug costing 100 RMB (a German mug, half a liter!).
I don't know what's become of them by now. I have never been to a microbrewery again. The beer did taste delicious although a bit youngish and it tended to disturb your stomach due to its still-active yeast.
I guess the CHinese have stopped drinking this kind of beer because their beer is traditionally made of rice, whereas Germans make beer from wheat, which tastes more bitter. The Tsingtao beer from Qingdao contains less rice, as far as I know.

[arioch36]

Yes, the same problems with Qingdao sorry, Tsingdao beer exist everywhere. I drank it at home in the states. In Henan, you have to pay a lot extra for the "real" Tsingdao beer. Fortunately many of the local beers are excellent, much better then the overpriced Bud or Blue Ribbon. Lucky for me, my favourite Henan beer is only 2 kuai at the local restaurant
My favorite so far is the local Beijing beer, Yanjing. Many restaurants have it draft. Give up on the name brands

[killian]

be careful of the bootleg knock-offs too. a couple years back, scores of people died drinking imitation booze over chinese new year. when i was new in china i would try the bai jiu but the aroma of vomit put me off it for good. i would just tell them "xie xie, wo bu yao" and they would leave me be.
best wishes.