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Zajko · Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject:

People 'complaining about the system' or even saying they'd like a chance to work abroad isn't quite the same as describing the entire country as 'pathetic and worthless', though, is it? I think you'll find, if you're ever daft enough to proffer that particular opinion to a group of your students or Russian colleagues here, that it may not go down too well.

Seeing as you don't seem able or willing to reply to the simple and obvious question regarding why you stay in a country you claim to hate so much, I'll offer two possible answers for you: either (a) you don't actually dislike it as much as you claim, but for some reason best known to yourself, you enjoy making posts here saying you do, or (b) you've been unable to find a job anywhere else despite 4 years of trying. Neither of those answers would really reflect that well on you, but I can't logically think of others. Feel free to correct me, though, if I've missed something obvious.

Kilij-Arslan · Joined: 12 Feb 2010 Posts: 25

Zajko · Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject:

Kilij-Arslan · Joined: 12 Feb 2010 Posts: 25

Zajko · Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject:

You just don't get it, do you? In short, simple terms, the question was: why, considering you rant about Russia as a "pathetic, corrupt and worthless country" have you lived here for 4 years and continue to do so? Seems a reasonable query to me and was asked by a number of posters on this thread. And no, I don't believe too many Russians share that particular opinion of their country, whatever its faults (which are many, and which I'm only too aware of).

Kilij-Arslan · Joined: 12 Feb 2010 Posts: 25

maruss · Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 1145 Location: Cyprus

Everyone knows that Russia is rotten and corrupt(so are quite a few other countries!)but to say everyone hates the place is not accurate-in fact many Russians are quite nationalistic and do not take kindly to foreigners openly criticising their country.They will admit,often in private though,what they don't like about the place and the political system,corruption etc etc.I think I understand where this guy is coming from though,because after a while things there do start to get to you.The question is,what can you do about it?It is really up to the Russians to change the place and if they can't or won't then that's their problem.(To even begin to understand why you need to read the modern history of the place-few people who are still alive today can even remember when it was not a dictatorship and unless you are in their shoes,it's too easy to criticise?).Perhaps we should always remember that we go there out of choice and are free to leave if we want to,while many locals who would like to leave for various reasons have no opportunity to do so so they try to tolerate it and live as best they can.
Just to end with for now,most of the problems we often moan about are trivial compared with those most Russians learn to cope with as a routine-if you knew some of the things a very well-known,but sadly now late journalist there told me a few years ago,your hair would stand on end!!

jpvanderwerf2001 · Joined: 02 Oct 2003 Posts: 1117 Location: New York

I agree with Maruss: Of course many Russians will recognize that there are many problems in their country; however, most are very nationalistic and patriotic, and take exception to "outsiders" bad-mouthing their country.
I think Kilij is talking about the fringe element (who exist in every society) who openly say they "hate" their country. Sure, I've met a few Russians who've said this, I've also met people from many countries who say the same (except Aussies and Kiwis, for some reason Cool

). As an American, I can say I've heard it many times by my fellow citizens.
Russia definitely has its problems: Corruption, poverty, xenophobia...but this doesn't mean that some won't find it fascinating.
If one is interested in learning more about Russia, don't listen to the naysayers: I encourage anyone to try it out (having done their research first!). You'll probably know rather quickly whether this is a place you'll end up liking, even loving, or the opposite.
And hey, I've been here for way too long, have married a local and started a family, and I complain about Russia every day (seriously Very Happy

); however, I would never call it "pathetic".

By the way, Kilij, there are over 190 countries in the world. Why not choose a different one? Or are you staying here on principle (you know, "you'll show Russia" and all that)?

Kilij-Arslan · Joined: 12 Feb 2010 Posts: 25

If someone has an interest in Russia, I would recommend they go as well- but AS A TOURIST.

As for your other comments about the strange dualism of Russian nationalism/self-hatred, I could write volumes on that but I'm not going to do that here since it will turn political.

maruss · Joined: 18 Mar 2003 Posts: 1145 Location: Cyprus

In fact I would never recommend anyone to go and work in Russia unless they have been there previously as a visitor because it is so different from western countries and also because of the complications which have to be dealt with on a routine basis!I also said that too many people imagine it will just be like Germany,Holland,Scandinavia etc. moved further east and with different writing on the road signs, but of course we know it is not like that at all!Even for tourists,Moscow is probably one of the most inhospitable cities to visit with few facilities for them such as proper information offices with staff who speak other languages or even essential things such as decent public w.c's!!Not to mention the exhorbitant prices of accomodation,meals and other tourist needs...
I also agree that it has a weird fascination and I don't think I have ever met anyone foreign who had an indifferent opinion about Russia after going there!
Coming back to the other topics,even my best Russian friend who is educated,speaks several languages and has lived and worked abroad as well as earning quite a decent salary,even by Moscow standards,still gets very agitated if I try to slag-off his country in general,although he does admit there is enormous corruption,social injustice, serious environmental pollution,poor health care,education etc. and that his wife often says she wishes they could emigrate with their two young boys,hopingly to find a better future for them!But he also blames the west for 'destroying the Soviet Union' when I mention things like people scavenging for food in waste bins next to food kiosks in Moscow and homeless people and even kids sniffing glue,drinking and even selling their bodies at Kurskiy Vokzal in a city which reportedly has more billionaires,not just millionaires than any other on the planet!!

coledavis · Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 1838

Hi folks. If you all don't mind, may I suggest that this thread has probably run its course in terms of productive debate. The shades of objective(ish) argument are:
They hate it, they defend it.
They don't hate it that much, they defend it.
As to how far you should push individual contributors about their personal motivation: I think enough has been asked. I suspect that we're just moving towards a row if this continues much longer.