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Green Acres · Joined: 06 May 2009 Posts: 260

The link above doesn't seem to work. Here it is again:

http://english.vietnamnet.vn/reports/201001/Good-manners-disappear-in-modern-Vietnam-890393/

ytse43 · Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Posts: 10

Interesting, yet not surprising article. Any country that climbs it way out of third-world status will seemingly come to this. Money, corporations, capitalism, the list goes on; they all tend to take the humanity out of being human. When will people realize that it's okay to just 'be'?

inky · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Location: Hanoi

Yes, Vietnamese student behavior is changing. A decade ago, most families were still wondering where their next bowl of rice was coming from; now their kids have cable TV, between-meal sugar-laden snacks, somewhat uncensored internet access, iPods with western music proclaiming the glory of violence and sex, the possibility of overseas travel, and lots of contact with foreigners, some of whom provide a very bad version of western values.

Vietnamese children and young adults have suddenly (within the past 5 years) become exposed to the violence and sexuality of HBO, MTV, YouTube, internet porn, violent and/or sexually-oriented DVDs with no sales restrictions, and the spectacle of intoxicated foreigners making fools of themselves. They don't know what's acceptable behavior and what isn't. Their parents are watching from the shore as their kids drift away from tradition like boats on an open sea.

If you follow the logic that economic development leads eventually to the evolution of some bratty kids who present behavior problems, then it makes sense that Vietnam is still preferable as a first teaching environment, since the more-developed Asian countries would logically have more bratty kids. From what I hear of Korea, Japan and Taiwan, for example, this is certainly true. And the overwhelming majority of Vietnamese students still maintain their culturally-based respect for education and for teachers.

The same people who decry the occasional freedom-of-speech clamp-downs by the authorities also decry the results of increased freedoms in the classroom. You can't have it both ways. We present our students with a different way of looking at the world, we encourage them to think independently, then when they try to exercise this newfound freedom of self-expression, and experiment with it, we become frightened and feel that we're losing their respect (the same threat felt by the government).

The above-referenced news article has been over-dramatized for effect (as most news articles are), and in any case does not provide a reason not to teach in Vietnam; in fact, the opposite is true. This is a golden opportunity for teachers to participate in a positive way as Vietnam continues to open up, to help students (adults and younger) figure out how to navigate this cultural assault. The fact remains that most Vietnamese students are a treasure and a pleasure to teach.

Galileo · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 63

Galileo · Joined: 10 Oct 2006 Posts: 63

At an international school a Vietnamese student would be exposed to others who come from cultures with more egalitarian values. This might influence the student's behavior and cause him/her to appear rude to people raised in a Confucian society in which a lot emphasis placed on respect for older people and authority figures.

inky · Joined: 05 Jan 2009 Posts: 283 Location: Hanoi

Yes, there is a lot of alcohol abuse in Vietnam by Vietnamese males. I'm not concerned with the alcohol abuse by them or by foreigners. It is the second part of my sentence where I place the emphasis, 'making fools of themselves.'

Hadit · Joined: 17 Sep 2009 Posts: 109

How do you think the market is away from the two main cities now? I realize the demand is on whole less, but wonder if these areas suffer from being "less desirable" from being out of the hotspots. For instance, Da Nang seems like an interesting area to me. Anyone guess how dismally the pay drops once out of the cities (assuming one has a CELTA)?

blateson · Joined: 12 Mar 2006 Posts: 144

That's a good, useful link provided at the top of this page, but in all honesty, it is still rather light on the current reality of esl schools in the heart of the big cities. In other words, the article is on the 'light' side and touches the truth carefully, as usual, but it's still better than nothing. If you meet people further out or even in the countryside, they will be moderately more traditional, but when in the city centers, the climate gets closer to full blown arrogance in many situations, both with the little kids, up through high school and young adults.

That article is from a Vietnamese 'newspaper,' said in quotes as newspapers in Vietnam are used just as much to promote momentary sympathies as report useful and factual information. Still, it's pretty much all you're going to get on Vietnam -- cautiously picked and combed information. As with this article however, you can read between the lines quite well sometimes.

Whenever you discuss the ongoing degradation of the quality of life in SE Asia (not just Vietnam, but Thailand for example) it seems somewhat common that a Westerner will say, "It's all because of this damn Westernization! Ten or more years ago you could come here and see nice people, now they are losing their ways and becoming Western." This is really an anti-Western based point, sometimes intentional and convenient or sometimes misguided. The truth is that life and respect of tradition is occuring because the people of these countries are the ones making it happen, not the western improvements being imported. Eating at Burger King or KFC doesn't make you a rotten person, it's you who decides to change your ways. Blaming KFC or Nike for the increased rudeness of Vietnamese (or other Asian) locals isn't addressing the real problem -- the locals don't know how to manage and incorporate the modernity they are purchasing. They put on $90 shoes and suddenly it's ok for them to step on your toes. Nike didn't tell them to do that. Don't blame the West when young Asians can't handle their new riches and materials.

saigondoc · Joined: 14 Feb 2010 Posts: 14

Western culture and westerners have had both a positive and negative effect on Vietnam.

Fast food, processed and packaged food has increased obesity and other illnesses. In addition, western influence has probably had a negative effect on traditional Vietnamese customs. etc It has also introduced critical thinking skills. Consumerism. Etc etc etc.

Nevertheless, it is still worth evaluating the newspaper article. Not only do you have to read between the lines, it is a complete fabrication. The article starts with a Vietnamese child not saying hello to his grandfather even though he hasn't seen him for years. What nonsense, this would never happen in any culture anywhere in the world. I won't waste my time on the
other distortions in the article. The Viets were never very good at propaganda. It's unfortunate that one can't find better data to support a thesis.

Green Acres · Joined: 06 May 2009 Posts: 260

Joined the forum on Valentines day, clearly alone and wishing he could be more than he is. Has no vested interest, other than telling people they are wrong if they should have a different view than his. Spends his time earning more money than anyone I know in Vietnam, but can still squeeze a little more time into bashing others' opinions on this forum.

Sounds like me, well almost. If I were making that much money, I wouldn't worry too much about what people write or say on a forum. As well, I would also consider the views that peope have, and if they were in error, then I would provide some information to help clarify the situation. I've read a lot of views, and while I don't agree with everyone, I will at least try to understand their reasoning.

saigondoc · Joined: 14 Feb 2010 Posts: 14

Thanks Grenacres for the diatribe with no facts.

Can't remember when I joined the site, but thank you for reminding me and
my Vietnamese wife. By the way, my personal life has nothing to do with my postings. However, it is very clear why you want to try to discredit me.
Why, because I have more information and experience about working in Vietnam than you do. In addition, you don't like to hear other points of view and the facts about working and living in vietnam.

saigondoc · Joined: 14 Feb 2010 Posts: 14

This is a continuation of my previous post.

Greenacres

You claim that what I have written is false and you include as evidence the salaries that I am quoting. It is a fact that most experienced teachers in Vietnam are making between 2000-3000 per month. In fact, I don't know of any teachers in Saigon making less the 2000. Of course, new teachers with no experience make about 1,500 min. If you think differently, post the facts.
In addition, all of my friends are saving a lot of money, a lot is relative but between 500-2000 per month.

Also there is work outside of the EFL industry corporate training-250-400 per day, MBA/BA teaching-mostly part-time usd 50-100 usd per hour.

Regarding your comment about fast food, it is a fact that fast food was developed in the west and one of the worst western exports. Read fast food nation. Indeed, their are fast food restaurants from Korea and the Phillipines. But explain to me why you left out KFC?!

If you believe my statements are fabrications, reply with details this time, such as salaries in HCMC.

Looking forward to your reply.

Cheers

Mr. Kalgukshi · Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject:

Do not address your comments to the messenger. Address the message.

This thread is now locked.

If the above bickering and contentious behavior is repeated on existing or future threads, responsible members will be permanently banned to include iSPs.

If you are thinking you are responsible for getting this thread locked, you are probably correct and are encouraged to treat this warning seriously if you wish to remain a member here.