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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Dear desultude,
Thank you for not getting annoyed that I jumped in so obtrusively.
However, you really do need to watch those generalizations, such the the following:
"Tolerance. What a wonderful thing!"
Many of us who are intolerant of much in this world could take umbrage at such an all-inclusive statement.
I am, I fear, highly intolerant of intolerance. 
Regards,
John |
Asa! You have caught me out! Here I am professing a value of tolerance, and at the same time being intolerant of Saudi Arabia! That would make me a hypocrite. I hate hypocrisy, but that again is intolerance (and, maybe, in this case, self-loathing?).
What is a person to do? Now I will puzzle over this one all day. Maybe I need to go back to the Kingdom and face my demons? |
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Hiawatha
Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Oman
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:03 pm Post subject: To non-Muslim women......How to get better service |
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To Desultude and others who really contribute by responding with honesty and candor.
Your posts are much appreciated and informative.
H. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: To non-Muslim women......How to get better service |
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| Hiawatha wrote: |
To Desultude and others who really contribute by responding with honesty and candor.
Your posts are much appreciated and informative.
H. |
Thanks!  |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Some women can deal with this stuff, I guess. But, given the world of opportunities out there, I still do wonder why they would choose to. |
Perhpas because they do not see things quite as you do, and have had experiences which differ from yours?
Obviously there is great discrmination in Saudi society and I too, have witnessed many a sad tale. But for every young woman chafing against the 'limitations' imposed by society, there are many others who are perfectly happy with their lot and who enjoy lives of ease and security which women elsewhere would envy. Girls who consider going into college to be more of a socila than an educational event and who will happily drop out in order to get married and be looked after - with conditions attached, of course - for the rest of their lives. And I'm not only talking about the filthy rich minority. Would I change places with these girls? No way. But they would not change places with me either - I know because they have more or less told me so. I have had Saudi women openly tell me how much they 'pity' me. I of course do not consider myself worthy of pity, but then I don't consider that most of them are worthy of pity either - not that they want to be pitied, when they are in fact quite happy with their lives.
I'm sure many Western women would consider Omani women to be 'oppressed' and to be limited by social restrictions. That's obviosuly not the impression you have, which shows that different people can have different view on, or experiences of, the same society. I can understand why men, or women, might be miserable in Saudi Arabia. I can also understand why others might quite like it. I've met plenty of people who fall into both categories and anywhere in between, and I have no difficulty understanding the reasoning behind their opinions - most of the time, anyway.
Now, I'll let you and john resume your mutual congratualations about how marvellously tolerant you both are. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Cleopatra,
"I can understand why men, or women, might be miserable in Saudi Arabia. I can also understand why others might quite like it.
I've met plenty of people who fall into both categories and anywhere in between, and I have no difficulty understanding the reasoning behind their opinions - most of the time, anyway."
I guess desultude falls into the "not most of the time" category since you do seem to have considerable difficulty understanding the reasoning behind her opinions. Odd - since I can see how she could fit into the first group you mentioned, the "miserable" ones.
Dear desultude,
I think we both need to be more tolerant of Cleopatra's opinions and extend to her the same courtesy that she extends to us.
"OK?"
Regards,
John |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I guess desultude falls into the "not most of the time" category since you do seem to have considerable difficulty understanding the reasoning behind her opinions. Odd - since I can see how she could fit into the first group you mentioned, the "miserable" ones. |
Apart from the fact that desultude seems perfectly well able to speak for herself, you seem to have misread my posts. As I've said, I have no difficulty understanding how anyone could be miserable here - I have had my miserable times here too. However, I don't say that just because I have been miserable/happy/somewhere inbetween here, I cannot understand why any other woman might feel differently.
Which of course is the point I have been making all along. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Dear Cleopatra,
"Apart from the fact that desultude seems perfectly well able to speak for herself . . ."
Ooops, sorry - I didn't realize that you were having a private conversation. I mistakenly thought that since I was mentioned in your post before mine that replying was permitted.
And you seem to have missed my whole point, which is that desultude made no generalizations. However, I can see why you might want to bury that inconvenient fact under a heap of red herrings.
Regards,
John |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| And you seem to have missed my whole point, which is that desultude made no generalizations. However, I can see why you might want to bury that inconvenient fact under a heap of red herrings. |
Correction: you said 'desultude made no generalizations'. I believe she did and agreed to disagree with you on this.
Anyway, unless you've got something of substance to add to the discussion, I have no interest in pursuing this puerile spat with you. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Darn it - where did I put that asp? Why is it that you can never find an asp when you need one.
Of course, maybe my problem is that I don't know my asp from a hole in the ground. |
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desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| johnslat wrote: |
Darn it - where did I put that asp? Why is it that you can never find an asp when you need one.
Of course, maybe my problem is that I don't know my asp from a hole in the ground. |
Personally, I've nothing to add. We can agree to disagree. I have said, on more than one occasion, "with all due respect". I certainly respect someone's right to like something I do not. But no one on god's green earth can force me to understand it. |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Come on Cleo... you know that you love puerile spats!!
This is one of those odd debates here where everyone is right for the most parts. Desu had a crappy experience at one of the worst university employers in Saudi... and yes... she does have a tendency to generalize her experience there to working/living in Saudi in general... perhaps not on this thread, but often in the past.
Cleo, on the other hand, who has had mostly pleasant and lucrative experience in Saudi tends to sell things as more positive than most find it... IMHO, of course. (she and I have debated this one for years by email... )
And John and I just can't resist trying to referee between two posters when we like both of them - and mostly agree with both of them.
VS |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucrative ? You mean the dame is loaded ? |
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Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Darn it - where did I put that asp? Why is it that you can never find an asp when you need one.
Of course, maybe my problem is that I don't know my asp from a hole in the ground. |
Johnslat, I think it was in my first post that I told you that I loved you. I still love you....but only because you post things like this once in a while. Tell mrs. johnslat she has no need to worry. Just expressing my delight and admiration of your humor. |
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