|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| johnslat wrote: |
Dear LCK,
Interesting statistics - though perhaps of only glancing relevance to the story involved.
Actually, if the "allegation" mentioned first is accurate, that was no accident.
It was vehicular homicide.
Regards,
John |
John,
Oh, I don't know about "glancing". Perhaps you missed this from the link: Most at-fault motorists who kill cyclists and pedestrians get off the hook.
The point being, rarely do I hear indictments of "backwards" or "inefficient" Saudi culture that doesn't find parallel in the West. Very rarely.
Sincerely,
LCK |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
trapezius
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 1670
Location: Land of Culture of Death & Destruction
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ^ Perhaps you should open your eyes and ears in that case? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A man died. Let us not trivialise this story. I must admit I would never ever under any circumstances get on a bicycle on a public road in Saudi Arabia. I used one when I lived in Khaledeya in Jeddah but that was within a compound (Saudia City - compound belonging to Saudi Arabian Airlines) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| trapezius wrote: |
| ^ Perhaps you should open your eyes and ears in that case? |
And perhaps you might elaborate beyond an idiom.
Attributing a cycling death, and the "cover-up" of such tragedy is, as a cursory Go-Ogle search reveals, typical of urban environments where the car is King and not endemic to Saudi Culture. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree that most people involved in an accident with a bicyclist... even if it results in death... get off even in the US. But, if the description in the article is correct - that the driver turned around for what sounds like intentionally hitting him, or even if it was just to play a game of chicken - that is vehicular homicide and I doubt that many would get away with it here. That would probably constitute the few that get charged and punished.
VS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| scot47 wrote: |
| A man died. Let us not trivialise this story. I must admit I would never ever under any circumstances get on a bicycle on a public road in Saudi Arabia. I used one when I lived in Khaledeya in Jeddah but that was within a compound (Saudia City - compound belonging to Saudi Arabian Airlines) |
Uncle Scott is correct, never ever use a bicyle on a public road in the Magic Kingdom. At least, riding a camel in public roads of the Magic Kingdom is more safer than riding bicyles! 
Even in UK, with strict cycling code, cyclists are killed in road accidents.
| Teta VS wrote: |
| .. that is vehicular homicide |
Indeed. In the Magic Kingdom, a vehicular homicide may be punishable by a death sentence in the Chop-Chop square, or paying a ransom to the family of the victim! In serious car accident cases, any driver involved in the accident is held in the black box regardless of fault, until the investigation is finished.
"There are three possibilities here:
One possibility is that the Telegraph got its facts wrong, and this really was nothing more than a �tragic accident.�
Another possibility is that it was Arab News that got its facts wrong, and the British Embassy was not calling this a �tragic accident.�
The third possibility is that both press reports were accurate�John Currie was deliberately run down by a Saudi driver, and the British Embassy was calling it a �tragic accident.�
Whichever is the case, British citizens deserve some answers from their government."
http://www.bicyclelaw.com/blog/index.cfm/2010/3/1/British-cyclist-deliberately-run-down-in-Saudi-Arabia-British-Embasy-calls-it-a-tragic-accident |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
I agree that most people involved in an accident with a bicyclist... even if it results in death... get off even in the US. But, if the description in the article is correct - that the driver turned around for what sounds like intentionally hitting him, or even if it was just to play a game of chicken - that is vehicular homicide and I doubt that many would get away with it here. That would probably constitute the few that get charged and punished.
VS |
I have little faith in the judicial system of the US outside what is vouchsafed through an expensive lawyer. The same might be said of its doctors and medical institutions.
Your conclusion is greatly conditioned by IF. It is reasonable you agree with statistics that find citation.
What is actual is that in countries where a car culture is ascendant and essential to economic development, excuses are given for the statistics endured.
Speaking to this event as a crime, which is the case, in my opinion, and readily confirmed with adequate (timely) investigation and forensics, is a matter of great dismay shared across cultural lines.
Speaking to Saudi car culture, it mirrors US culture of the 70s. The littering of its roads, the tolerance of adolescents behind the wheel and intolerance (derision) of women behind it (outright denial in Saudi Arabia's case) all find parallel in the US of 40 years ago.
What is actual is that Saudi Arabia has higher rates of vehicular fatality per capita than most countries. What is actual is that teenagers are the most aggressive and dangerously assert an imagined status behind the wheel.
Odder still, the average person, in my experience, will often become strangely aggressive when perceiving a right of way behind the wheel than in situations with far less potential for fatality. I would admit my own behavior as curious in this regard. The management of this sensibility produces the ubiquitous dissension, even among intimates, of: Slow Down.
For so many, the road becomes a "no man's land" and I believe most have experienced personalities normally passive and pacifist agitated to an abnormal degree with the circumstances of operating a vehicle.
What is actual is that this tragedy, nor the treatment of it, can be accurately ascribed to a cultural typicality outside what is typical of cultures that wrestle with rapid development. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear LCT,
"Riyadh police spokesperson Maj. Sami Al-Shwaerikh ruled out the involvement of foul play. He confirmed that investigations were still being carried out and the results would be announced soon."
Now there's a time-saver: the verdict is in before the investigation and its results are known.
And yet, there are those who slur Saudi efficiency."
As the bold print indicates, I was not referring so much to this:
" Most at-fault motorists who kill cyclists and pedestrians get off the hook. "
as the fact that unless I've misread the article, it would seem the driver is "getting off the hook" even before the investigation has been completed.
Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cuffs
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 77
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I cycle several times a week before or after work along Khobar Corniche and beyond. It's not so bad, as long as you keep your wits about you, and just as you would when driving, do the thinking for the drivers around you. On the contrary in fact, I seem to generate more than my fair share of hooting encouragement. Then again I do look great in lycra.
I'd write more but I don't want to tempt fate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear Cuffs,
May Allah protect you and keep you safe, inshallah.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cuffs
Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 77
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Interestingly, I was recently asking a few of my students if they ever did any cycling. After a short period of reflective brow-furrowing one of them offered up that he couldn't possibly consider it because it was "shameful".
I wondered (silently) if this had anything to do with the buttocks/seat interface, but no, my suspicions were confounded. Apparently it's because it would look bad if anyone saw him and assumed he was cycling because he couldn't afford a car! Is this why no-one walks anywhere here?
"Look at that! The peasant can't even afford a bike!"
Fortunately another guy had just won a 7000 riyal bet by cycling from Abqaiq to Dammam in twelve hours. Twelve hours? I could walk it in that time.
Ho hum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
I wondered (silently) if this had anything to do with the buttocks/seat interface, but no, my suspicions were confounded. Apparently it's because it would look bad if anyone saw him and assumed he was cycling because he couldn't afford a car! Is this why no-one walks anywhere here?
"Look at that! The peasant can't even afford a bike!" |
Yes, I think it's part of the reason. Another reason, of course, is laziness. Then there's the heat for most of the year. And for women, there's the added 'shame' in being seen walking - it looks as though you have nobody to 'protect' you and that your family don't care about you! To be a woman walking along the streets of Riyadh is to be an object of great curiosity from every passing motorist - not in a good way, I hasten to add!
I think there's a lot of stupidity attached to the idea of not being able to afford things here. A few months ago, students asked if it would be OK if they made copies of the required textbook. I said fine, or alternatively I thought a group who used the exact same textbook last term and didn't need it anymore. Why, I suggested, didn't they seek out these students and ask if they were willing to sell their book? AFter all, it's not as though they would need it anymore. The girls nodded politely but looked as though my suggestion was a bizarre one - and btw these were by no means all rich students for whom an SR180 textbook was a trivial expense.
Every university I've ever been to has a secondhand bookshop for students, or informal networks where students sell used texbooks to one another. But not here, it seems. I can't help but think 'shame' at buying something off another Saudi is the reason for it. Silly, really. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| johnslat wrote: |
Now there's a time-saver: the verdict is in before the investigation and its results are known.
...unless I've misread the article, it would seem the driver is "getting off the hook" even before the investigation has been completed.
Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?
Regards,
John |
John,
We should establish we're both armchair lawyers. No? I've edited briefs, but never written one. Foul play, to me, refers to a prior relationship between the victim and perpetrator, or other circumstance of contract and its agents.
What remains to be given character is motive which determines the degree of homicide. How laymen and lawyers perceive passion and intent is wisely tempered, in my opinion, by jury.
Not the case in The Kingdom. Which places a great responsibility on investigators. The development of British law and the power of a constable is an enlightening parallel.
An indictment is pending, and to what degree nationality plays a part is often given reasonable scrutiny by members of this forum. I was perplexed by the article's reference to witness testimony (the other cyclist?) and the victim having a prior road incident. A prior incident, without detail, is difficult to sound beyond four scenarios: Intrigue, a pattern of altercation for which the victim might bear responsibility, a pattern of harassment attributed to cultural tension, and mere coincidence.
Sincerely,
LCK |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 007 wrote: |
John Currie was deliberately run down by a Saudi driver, and the British Embassy was calling it a �tragic accident.�
Whichever is the case, British citizens deserve some answers from their government." |
The rub, from all angles, lay in the term "deliberately". If the motorist's explanation finds sympathy from the investigator in terms of A) I was insulted; or, B) Islam was insulted, there will be no grave indictment. Even in Western law, "deliberate" is a charged term, expressed in terms of degree, measured by presentations of passion and intent framed by a period of time. Governments rarely "answer". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dear LCK,
"What remains to be given character is motive which determines the degree of homicide."
Umm, no "foul play, remember?
Riyadh police spokesperson Maj. Sami Al-Shwaerikh ruled out the involvement of foul play.
"An indictment is pending . . ."
An indictment for what - careless driving?
1. (Law) a formal written charge of crime formerly referred to and presented on oath by a grand jury
2. (Law) any formal accusation of crime
One doesn't get indicted for careless driving; one gets (maybe) a ticket.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
