|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
|
 Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
| Here in Oman there is a mandate from the Ministry of Education requiring native speakers. |
I don't believe that this is true Desu. At both SQU and the private university where I last taught, a large proportion of the EFL teachers are NOT native speakers. There are various sub-continentals and other Arabs - and the ones that I worked with were highly professional.
I would find it difficult to believe that they require universities out in the hinterlands to have native speakers when they don't require it of SQU or the private universities in Muscat.
VS |
I sat in on some interviewing at TESOL Arabia last week, and was quite assured by the administrators doing the hiring that the Ministry would not approve non-native speakers except in very rare cases where the non-native speaker was truly near-native in knowledge and in accent. No Hinglish or Banglish, etc. I personally watched the CVs of extremely well qualified applicants fall by the wayside for this reason- including PhDs.
We have one non-native speaker where I teach- she has a spot on British accent and is Omani. She is an extreme exception- and she is here because she is also Omani.
The Ministry of Education is clamping down on a lot of things. We are getting a lot of mandates that must be met for accreditation.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Citizenkane
Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Posts: 234
Location: Xanadu
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Signing your life away?
That's a touch melodramatic. Like everyone, I have days when I wonder what on earth I'm doing here and am tempted to give the whole thing up and go back home, or wherever. The Kingdom can be a bit of a hardship posting but then again, the benefits are obvious and they come in the form of a nice pay cheque at the end of every month. And long summer holidays when we can really enjoy life. Each to their own, but nobody is forcing any of us to be here.
desultude
| Quote: |
The Ministry of Education is clamping down on a lot of things. We are getting a lot of mandates that must be met for accreditation.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
If Oman is like any of the other GCC states, it's likely that these 'hiring requirements' will be thrown by the wayside pretty soon when they find that reality does not match their aspirations. I know Oman is considered a nice place to live, but the salaries on offer there are considerably lower than in the rest of the Gulf. I just can't see them being able to attract enough native speakers. Even the wealthier Gulf states don't do this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
h-train
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 100
Location: 26 miles from Bahrain
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Signing Your Life Away |
|
|
| Flightly wrote: |
I think you've really got to ask yourself if the accumulative amount of money that you can earn in this country if you sign and commit yourself to an ESL contract is that worth it if you knew that you'd be signing your life - or is it individuality? - away; where you become controlled, owned, where anything remotely dignified becomes stripped away; where your passport is witheld right up until the last moment.
If you're lucky enough to get fired, it could be because of two likely scenarios:-
you can't bring yourself to 'teach' under a rigimen where too much paperwork is involved,
or that you can no longer handle classroom situations where the students are lying and two-faced, or vice-versa.
But to put it simply, would you honestly sign your life away if you knew the prospects are as silent as the grave, are as a ghost town, are as a mortuary where everyone is far away from each other; a deathliness broken only by the rustling of palm leaves in gentle breezes or the drawn-out intermittent wailing from loudspeakers which signifies a call to join in one of the several daily prayer sessions? |
Lucky enough to get fired eh... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cmp45
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 1475
Location: KSA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Signing Your Life Away |
|
|
| Flightly wrote: |
I think you've really got to ask yourself if the accumulative amount of money that you can earn in this country if you sign and commit yourself to an ESL contract is that worth it if you knew that you'd be signing your life - or is it individuality? - away; where you become controlled, owned, where anything remotely dignified becomes stripped away; where your passport is witheld right up until the last moment.
If you're lucky enough to get fired, it could be because of two likely scenarios:-
you can't bring yourself to 'teach' under a rigimen where too much paperwork is involved,
or that you can no longer handle classroom situations where the students are lying and two-faced, or vice-versa.
But to put it simply, would you honestly sign your life away if you knew the prospects are as silent as the grave, are as a ghost town, are as a mortuary where everyone is far away from each other; a deathliness broken only by the rustling of palm leaves in gentle breezes or the drawn-out intermittent wailing from loudspeakers which signifies a call to join in one of the several daily prayer sessions? |
When you eat cherries, you must not swallow the pits. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Citizenkane wrote: |
Signing your life away?
That's a touch melodramatic. Like everyone, I have days when I wonder what on earth I'm doing here and am tempted to give the whole thing up and go back home, or wherever. The Kingdom can be a bit of a hardship posting but then again, the benefits are obvious and they come in the form of a nice pay cheque at the end of every month. And long summer holidays when we can really enjoy life. Each to their own, but nobody is forcing any of us to be here.
desultude
| Quote: |
The Ministry of Education is clamping down on a lot of things. We are getting a lot of mandates that must be met for accreditation.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
If Oman is like any of the other GCC states, it's likely that these 'hiring requirements' will be thrown by the wayside pretty soon when they find that reality does not match their aspirations. I know Oman is considered a nice place to live, but the salaries on offer there are considerably lower than in the rest of the Gulf. I just can't see them being able to attract enough native speakers. Even the wealthier Gulf states don't do this. |
With a little bit of overtime, I make what I was making in Saudi Arabia. And I work at one of the lower paying universities.
I met a number of people at the TESOL Arabia Conference who only wanted to work in Oman, including one who flew in from the U.S., one from England and one from Japan, expressly to interview for jobs in Oman, and only Oman. The reputation is spreading. There were plenty of very well qualified applicants for the positions at our uni.
The idea that Saudi Arabia pays so well, and that it pays better than the rest of the Gulf, is dated information. Things seem to have stagnated in the magic Kingdom.
More importantly, the quality of life is eons better outside of the Kingdom, and great in Oman. Money is so far from everything that it is almost nothing in terms of living your life. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Citizenkane wrote: |
desultude
| Quote: |
The Ministry of Education is clamping down on a lot of things. We are getting a lot of mandates that must be met for accreditation.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
If Oman is like any of the other GCC states, it's likely that these 'hiring requirements' will be thrown by the wayside pretty soon when they find that reality does not match their aspirations. I know Oman is considered a nice place to live, but the salaries on offer there are considerably lower than in the rest of the Gulf. I just can't see them being able to attract enough native speakers. Even the wealthier Gulf states don't do this. |
You've hit the nail on the head there. When I went to Oman in '88, they were requiring that everyone must have an MA+1 year teaching. Soon enough they were having problems recruiting and started taking BA+CELTA too.
The small colleges and even SQU are having problems getting native speaker teachers as it is because of the low salaries. Take a look at the list of Language Center Faculty online and you will see that native speakers are definitely in the minority. At the private college where I taught, native speakers are less than 10%. With the UAE next door and Qatar, experienced native speaker teachers with MAs can get nearly double the pay. Thus, they will too often end up with poorly qualified teachers who just happen to be native speakers.
The real problem, of course, is that their vetting and the recruiters who have been hiring any native speaker who shows up and their lousy system of degree accreditation has allowed in too many fake degrees. But, rather than fix that... we will make some other rules that sound good. And so it goes...
VS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| desultude wrote: |
I sat in on some interviewing at TESOL Arabia last week, and was quite assured by the administrators doing the hiring that the Ministry would not approve non-native speakers except in very rare cases where the non-native speaker was truly near-native in knowledge and in accent. No Hinglish or Banglish, etc. I personally watched the CVs of extremely well qualified applicants fall by the wayside for this reason- including PhDs.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
What do you mean by "near-native in knowledge"?
I think there are Banglish and Hinglish who are better in knowledge (both English and general knowledge) than some of the native speakers with blue eyes!
I do not think accreditation in English courses require the teacher to be a native speaker? It has to do with quality of the teaching and standards.
I think Oman, as any other Gulf country, is full of Hinglish, Banglish, Afranglish, you name it, just check any web site of any university or college in Oman, and you will find them everywhere! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The idea that Saudi Arabia pays so well, and that it pays better than the rest of the Gulf, is dated information. Things seem to have stagnated in the magic Kingdom. |
I'm not sure if anyone ever claimed that salaries are on the whole higher in KSA than in, say, Kuwait or Qatar. It's just that the cost of living tends to be lower and opportunities to splurge rather fewer - though by no means non-existent. So even if the salaries are similar, one can often save more in KSA.
| Quote: |
| More importantly, the quality of life is eons better outside of the Kingdom, and great in Oman. Money is so far from everything that it is almost nothing in terms of living your life. |
That's your subjective opinion, based on your personal experience.
For very many people, money is very important, and is the primary reason why they come to this part of the world - not just KSA but the other Gulf states too. Money may be 'almost nothing' to you but it is a major factor for many - I would say most - of us when choosing a job. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| I'm not sure if anyone ever claimed that salaries are on the whole higher in KSA than in, say, Kuwait or Qatar. |
C'mon, Cleo! What have all these fools been putting themselves thru...first "attempting" to get information from us...then, ignoring it...eventually, getting illegal to teach upon visas...inevitabally, getting burned...and, finally, posting about their horrible experiences.
They ALL think this is the "Land of Milk and Honey" Milk and Honey it ain't. It's cold water or a sharp slap in the face.
Saudi = UNfun! The money AIN'T that great and ya gotsta put up with a lot of deprivation to earn it.
I made my winnings in saudi and it bought me a house..Khalaas!
The money to be made in saudi has been reduced...mainly, to an urban myth!
And, don't forget, I didn't work at some pedestrian "college" (not yours), but for upstanding military contractors. I still found it hell...not from the saudis, whom I found murderous on the streets, but from the Western staff who were constantly attempting to crawl up on my shoulders to lift themselves up!
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The money to be made in saudi has been reduced...mainly, to an urban myth! |
Really? I must have been hallucinating when I saw my last payslip then!
The days of super generous packages in KSA are over, but that's true across the Gulf, and not only in the teaching field. However, you can still earn good money in KSA if you know where to look and have the appropriate qualifications.
With all due respect to them, the types you mention who have been 'burned' by the dodgy recruiters, probably would not qualify for the better paying jobs, either in KSA or elsewhere in the Gulf. However, their (and your) bad experiences do not negate the fact that there still are some pretty good deals to be had in KSA. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 007 wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
I sat in on some interviewing at TESOL Arabia last week, and was quite assured by the administrators doing the hiring that the Ministry would not approve non-native speakers except in very rare cases where the non-native speaker was truly near-native in knowledge and in accent. No Hinglish or Banglish, etc. I personally watched the CVs of extremely well qualified applicants fall by the wayside for this reason- including PhDs.
I have read what the Ministry documents say, and they are very clear on hiring requirements. |
What do you mean by "near-native in knowledge"?
I think there are Banglish and Hinglish who are better in knowledge (both English and general knowledge) than some of the native speakers with blue eyes!
I do not think accreditation in English courses require the teacher to be a native speaker? It has to do with quality of the teaching and standards.
I think Oman, as any other Gulf country, is full of Hinglish, Banglish, Afranglish, you name it, just check any web site of any university or college in Oman, and you will find them everywhere! |
What I meant by "knowledge" is the knowledge both of English grammar and syntax, and the pedagogical knowledge necessary to teach foundation students (EAP, classroom management, study skills, etc.).
I am not arguing that we need to have all, or even mostly, native speakers. I have made no claims whatsoever other than that there are requirements which preclude replacing us with lower paid non-native speakers.
I find it ironic that an Indian who has English as his first or near first language (completely bilingual) is treated as a non-native speaker based on his or her country of origin.
The head of our English department on campus is Indian and a Phd. But I don't think he would have been hired for the foundation program!
I am all for merit being the determining factor. And if that were to be the case, I know of a lot of ESL teachers who could easily be replaced by non-native speakers- much to the benefit of their students. Of course, they should be paid the same as the passport holders of English speaking countries. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The money to be made in saudi has been reduced...mainly, to an urban myth! |
Really? I must have been hallucinating when I saw my last payslip then!
Again, not your uni...but for most, Yep!
The days of super generous packages in KSA are over, but that's true across the Gulf, and not only in the teaching field. However, you can still earn good money in KSA if you know where to look and have the appropriate qualifications.
We're still making decent money in the U.A.E. and with a life to boot! Therein lies the rub. Most of those who clamor to the big sand box are under qualified...
With all due respect to them, the types you mention who have been 'burned' by the dodgy recruiters, probably would not qualify for the better paying jobs, either in KSA or elsewhere in the Gulf. However, their (and your) bad experiences do not negate the fact that there still are some pretty good deals to be had in KSA.
Again, i DON'T dispute you. What you say is true and has been reflected in my observations. There are some pretty good deals left in saudi, but we are, if I may, in the "elite" (Gawd, that sounds harsh!) but, as I have said many times, if you don't go past the 1st degree, then yer not fer real.
Those who think that saudi is an exploitable resource are in for a BIG surprise!
|
NCTBA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
omar08
Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 12
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Saudi Arabia is a place to save $$$$. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lazycomputerkids
Joined: 22 Sep 2009
Posts: 360
Location: Tabuk
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| desultude wrote: |
I find it ironic that an Indian who has English as his first or near first language (completely bilingual) is treated as a non-native speaker based on his or her country of origin.
The head of our English department on campus is Indian and a Phd. But I don't think he would have been hired for the foundation program! |
And unless he's Vikram Seth, there's good reason for it. Indian claims of English proficiency were embraced and then abandoned by US call centers.
| desultude wrote: |
| I am all for merit being the determining factor. And if that were to be the case, I know of a lot of ESL teachers who could easily be replaced by non-native speakers- much to the benefit of their students. Of course, they should be paid the same as the passport holders of English speaking countries. |
"A lot" So what. We all know a lot of this or that. Saudis are market savvy enough to pay teachers by what wage is competitive in a teacher's home country. You're suggesting a market-blind "wage" determined by fantasy.
There is often reference to "blue eyes" and the "racism" of Saudi Arabia. I have brown eyes and I've met "a lot" of bilinguals with a "proficiency" measured only by other bilinguals. I've met bilinguals with an English literacy that is profound, aware they might better serve a program by managing the English native 'talk-bots'.
The Saudis know the world beats a path to a competitive wage and respond with shrewdness. As all countries do.
While it's true there are cases of "non-white" and "non-western" teachers with all the skill and proficiency of a "white" losing a job, I would invite anyone with a lick of life experience to try to codify a means to measure ability and proficiency outside academe.
Because academe, the very PhDs you cite, have a shortage of English proficient graduates coming home to supply a professional class. Were university ESL programs adequately successful, you wouldn't have seen a proliferation of 'for-profit' language centers-- nor "PYP"s.
To be fair: Presently, there's no educational endeavor on Earth not overwhelmed by simple population growth. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
desultude
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 614
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lazycomputerkids wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
I find it ironic that an Indian who has English as his first or near first language (completely bilingual) is treated as a non-native speaker based on his or her country of origin.
The head of our English department on campus is Indian and a Phd. But I don't think he would have been hired for the foundation program! |
And unless he's Vikram Seth, there's good reason for it. Indian claims of English proficiency were embraced and then abandoned by US call centers.
| desultude wrote: |
| I am all for merit being the determining factor. And if that were to be the case, I know of a lot of ESL teachers who could easily be replaced by non-native speakers- much to the benefit of their students. Of course, they should be paid the same as the passport holders of English speaking countries. |
"A lot" So what. We all know a lot of this or that. Saudis are market savvy enough to pay teachers by what wage is competitive in a teacher's home country. You're suggesting a market-blind "wage" determined by fantasy.
There is often reference to "blue eyes" and the "racism" of Saudi Arabia. I have brown eyes and I've met "a lot" of bilinguals with a "proficiency" measured only by other bilinguals. I've met bilinguals with an English literacy that is profound, aware they might better serve a program by managing the English native 'talk-bots'.
The Saudis know the world beats a path to a competitive wage and respond with shrewdness. As all countries do.
While it's true there are cases of "non-white" and "non-western" teachers with all the skill and proficiency of a "white" losing a job, I would invite anyone with a lick of life experience to try to codify a means to measure ability and proficiency outside academe.
Because academe, the very PhDs you cite, have a shortage of English proficient graduates coming home to supply a professional class. Were university ESL programs adequately successful, you wouldn't have seen a proliferation of 'for-profit' language centers-- nor "PYP"s.
To be fair: Presently, there's no educational endeavor on Earth not overwhelmed by simple population growth. |
Market forces, yada, yada, yada. I have heard all of that before- probably before you were born, even.
National and international laws are needed to protect workers. A person who is doing the same job as someone else should not be paid less because he or she is brown- or a he or she, or even a he/she for that matter.
The mindset in the US was the same until people fought, and in some cases, died, for equality of treatment. I sure appreciated all of those fine efforts when I went to work on the TransAlaska Pipeline at equal wages with my husband- for doing the same job equally well.
If that makes me a communist, so be it, but I have more respect for my free-market peers than to think them all blindly obedient to the bloody dollar and free market forces at the expense of fairness and equity. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
