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RollingStone
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
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 Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:38 am Post subject: |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi,
This post has nothing to do with your discussion with Glenski, but I justed wanted to say that I have had the benefit of reading many of your posts and have found them to be the most insightful, balanced - and perhaps oddly, original - and thought-provoking as to what life in the TESL industry in Japan is like. You are definitely a benefit to this forum. |
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seklarwia
Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 1546
Location: Monkey onsen, Nagano
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| starteacher wrote: |
| There is no measurement of really how well students do as the ALT is there for conversation, and quite often the ALT classes do not get marked or examined. the JTE has English classes too taught in Japanese and the students learn from them, before they meet the ALT. |
Our BOE encourages the taking of speaking exams. Most of the kids in our schools take the STEP tests and 3rd years use this to contribute to their school records to get into SH. The top SHs in the area also do oral tests and interviews in English. Our third year students also have to take a 1-to-1 speaking test, the results of which must be submitted to the BOE.
I know that other areas where they also emphasise the importance of speaking abilities in JH, so to say that speaking doesn't get marked is an over generalisation. Perhaps when you were an ALT under your BOE, they didn't, but when it comes to ALT work - ESID.
And I think you forget that many ALTs don't teach purely conversation. Many of us do reading, writing and listening too, which most certainly are assessed. I'm lucky enough to get to teach kids self expression, discussion/debate and get them thinking about things that occur outside their little student worlds. Many of our kids take the pre-2nd STEP test, which not only require decent English language knowledge but also asks discussion questions. Answering things like, "Do you think that men and women are equal in the work place?" takes a little more than the mere ability to manipulate English. And these discussion style questions appeared this year for the first time in some of the SH entrance exams to raise the bar when they received so many more applications than last year.
And not every ALT has had their students taught things before they get them. In JH, we sometimes get the kids the first time they encounter new English. Some very good JTEs don't teach purely from the book in Japanese either. In ES, the ALT is often the the only English teacher and will be teaching everything with little or no help from the HR teacher who may not speak any English at all.
But it does seem that in SH, many ALTs do a whole lot less since the goal is to pass uni entrance exams that are still quite archaic in what they test.
| Quote: |
| Would an ALT try to, in their limited time, get these students to like English ? |
No, but many good ALTs would try to befriend the student. If a kid doesn't like a subject, they don't like it. But if the kid likes the teacher, they will put effort into the subject purely for acknowledgement by the teacher. That's why I have closer relationship with the rebel/disruptive students than the kids getting 100% all the time. And in class, once activities are underway, my JTEs normally supervise the class so that I can give more attention to these students (who are nearly always the weakest students in the class).
| Quote: |
| Like I said they are two different jobs, neither which need any qualifications (other than degree), which shows that however much any teacher has a passion for being an ALT or an eikaiwa teacher or working hard at either, they will always been seen as a jobs not needing qualifications. And as from this, so when Glenski mentions that a profession has to start at the bottom somewhere, I would put BOTH eikaiwa and ALT, as their entry requirements to do either are the same. |
This I agree with totally. Many people do not view entry level work highly. Sometimes these beliefs are justified, sometimes they are based on misconceptions. But I still don't agree with your personal description of an ALTs job. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| seklarwia wrote: |
| This I agree with totally. Many people do not view entry level work highly. Sometimes these beliefs are justified, sometimes they are based on misconceptions. But I still don't agree with your personal description of an ALTs job. |
The very inconsistencies of what is involved in various ALT jobs and what is involved in various eikaiwa job as discussed in this thread, shows how fragmented the EFL industry is in Japan.
I'm not disagreeing with what you or others are saying about ALT/eikaiwa. I am looking at the worst case factors in both, and as there are lots of poor ALTs and poor eikaiwas, they are lowel level. It is good to have a passionate ALT teacher or a passionate eikaiwa teacher, but I find these few and far between in the entire industry. It is a pity that the image of these types of job is low.
It would be interesting to ask the local Japanese themselves what they think of ALTs and eikaiwa teachers/teaching, as often we English teachers are too proud of ourselves   |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I did a PGCE in ESOL in the UK in 2007/8. It was clear from the very beginning that it was intended for people with no previous experience of teaching English as there were people on the course who had never taught . |
If you did the PGCE I think you did then this is not suitable for schools either but aimed at colleges and 14 to 19 year olds. It's specifically for post-compulsory education isn't it? And yes, a teaching license/PGCE is a pre-service qualification and so no experience of teaching is necessary.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| the initial modules were ranked lower on the National Qualifications Framework than the CELTA (level 3/4 - I forget because the govt. in the UK keeps buggering about with the framework). The course lasted 9 months, so by the end it had moved on to degree-level modules (level 6). The course is equivalent to a B.Ed without QTS.. |
This is not really comparing like with like. A CELTA is irrelevant in the context of state education in the UK, whereas a PGCE is a license to teach in the state sector. The final qualification is higher than a CELTA in academic terms and on the NQF, even if the initial modules are not.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| If you have a master's and the relevant experience or a DELTA , you can fast-track into the QT(L)S stream without doing a whole PGCE. |
You can skip a module or two, but you'll still receive the same teaching license/PGCE.
By the way, they now call the PGCE for Further Education DTTLS, just to confuse everybody. It's a generic teaching qualification and you must then do your additional subject specialism.
| seklarwia wrote: |
It's funny that... entry level ESL jobs won't give you any real advantage for a public sector job in the UK, but many MA courses in TESOL/TEFL, etc require at least a years teaching experience in ESL and some of the distance courses I looked at were being aimed specifically at current teachers. So entry level work would be good if your are looking into getting a masters. |
The ESL industry is mostly unregulated and you often need no qualifications to work within it. Any unqualified teaching you do isn't recognised by anyone except other unregulated schools.
In contrast state sector education is monitored by governments and is concerned with the welfare, safety and progress of children. It's not surprising that a few years of unqualified teaching abroad aren't any help. Can you imagine someone that's worked overseas as an unqualified doctor suddenly using it to their advantage in a UK or US hospital? Scandal!
MA's are about the academic study of teaching and language, so ESL teaching can be a perfectly good background context for this. You still need to do teacher training and get a police-check though if you want to work in schools, and rightly so. The fact people can work in Japanese schools without any kind of background check is scandalous. |
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MarisaMP
Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Hello everyone!
I'm sorry to have caused so much trouble but yes my questions have been answered (and pretty much within the first few posts). I must admitt the 3rd post took my question in a different direction so pretty much after a few more posts I didn't keep up with reading all of them. I didn't realize that I was the one who is supposed to help regulate the board and for that I'm sorry.
But thank you all so much for your responses!  |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| If you did the PGCE I think you did then this is not suitable for schools either but aimed at colleges and 14 to 19 year olds. It's specifically for post-compulsory education isn't it? And yes, a teaching license/PGCE is a pre-service qualification and so no experience of teaching is necessary. |
That's effectively what I said, yes. I never said that I taught in secondary schools - the qualification I did seemed the most apposite comparison to make as, afaik, there is no PGCE for EAL in compulsory education.
| Quote: |
| This is not really comparing like with like. A CELTA is irrelevant in the context of state education in the UK, whereas a PGCE is a license to teach in the state sector. The final qualification is higher than a CELTA in academic terms and on the NQF, even if the initial modules are not. |
That's also what I said, yes. However, I don't think the CELTA is actually irrelevant in the UK (semi-)public sector - many of the private training providers contracted to deliver ESOL in the community, where my classmates on the course were placed, employed staff with CELTAs. However, iirc, it was being made consistently more difficult to do so - the PTLLS and DTLLS were being made compulsory. I don't know the current situation because I now live in Scotland, where teachers with a CELTA are permitted to deliver ESOL courses - it's up to the hiring policies of the provider.
| Quote: |
| You can skip a module or two, but you'll still receive the same teaching license/PGCE. |
That's what I said.
Anyway, back to Japan.
This thread needs popcorn. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I don't think the CELTA is actually irrelevant in the UK (semi-)public sector - many of the private training providers contracted to deliver ESOL in the community, where my classmates on the course were placed, employed staff with CELTAs. However, iirc, it was being made consistently more difficult to do so - the PTLLS and DTLLS were being made compulsory. |
Yes people with just CELTA's can sometimes slip through the net, but companies can get into trouble for employing them if they're not studying for the relevant qualifications as well.
Everyone teaching in FE, whatever the subject, needs to do DETTLS now. It'll all change in the future probably, the lecturers I know are fed up of being political footballs with constantly changing criteria. Everyone's also supposed to do a Level 5 qualification in Literacy and Numeracy now as well, regardless of whether they have GCSES/A Levels or degrees in English and Maths. Barmy.
Just call the FE qualification a PGCE so there's no confusion or ambiguity. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| this is not just my opinion, but that of many/most people on several forums over a decade of teaching in Japan. What is not clear to you? |
Eikaiwa teaching has been severely criticised for far longer than the last ten years.
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| the subculture of �Eikaiwa� is racist in its hiring practices, racist in its pay scale, racist in its advertising, and racist in the ideology put forward in its textbooks and classrooms�.the idea of the �native speaker� is mostly a fraud�language schools which are run as businesses are proud of their �native speakers�. But the expression �native speaker� is a code word for �white�. |
That was written by Lummis in 1976. |
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ShioriEigoKyoushi
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 364
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by ShioriEigoKyoushi on Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| starteacher wrote: |
| It is a pity that the image of these types of job is low. |
Well, there is no real standard for teaching qualifications, so what do you expect? JET (according to our poster G Chthulhu, who knows) has been asking more and more of its ALTs along this line, but I think still the vast majority of ALTs have little to no teaching experience or credentials.
| starteacher wrote: |
| It would be interesting to ask the local Japanese themselves what they think of ALTs and eikaiwa teachers/teaching, as often we English teachers are too proud of ourselves |
Have you read Importing diversity: inside Japan's JET Program
By David L. McConnell?
Most of the below are available online.
Role Controversy among Team Teachers in the JET Programme, by Sean Mahoney (http://www.jalt-publications.org/archive/jj/2004b/art5.pdf)
Contexts and policy reform: a case study of EFL teaching in a high school in Japan, by Sachiko Hiramatsu.
TEAM-TEACHING: WHO SHOULD REALLY BE IN CHARGE? A LOOK AT REVERSE VS. TRADITIONAL TEAM-TEACHING, By ALAN R. MACEDO
The Impact of Foreign Instructors on Lesson Content and Student Learning in Japanese Junior and Senior High Schools, by Arthur D. Meerman
Both groups observe a close interdependency between ALT motivation and student learning; (b) ALTs stress the educational benefit of non-duty related interaction with both staff and students, while JLTs emphasize the integration of foreign instructors in school life; and (c) JLTs are more likely than ALTs to perceive a relationship between the nature of team-taught lesson content and student learning.
EFL Teachers� Views on Team-Teaching:In the Case of Japanese Secondary School Teachers, by Koji Igawa
More than half of the JTEs think that JTE motivation (54.1%) and ALT expertise (54.1%) are important factors in making TT work in their classroom. The majority of the ALTs, on the other hand, think that ALT motivation (58.1%) and JTE motivation (54.8%) are significant factors in
making TT work.
The perceived ratio of classroom English use differs: On average, ALTs think they use English more often than JTEs (70.0% and 60.9%, respectively).
JTEs think their students understand 56.8% of what they say in English, while the ALTs think only 45.6% of what they say is being understood by their students.
Another key phrase in TT is� teachers� expertise.� Both JTEs and ALTs feel that JTE expertise is vital. In addition, JTEs believe that ALT expertise is also significant.
Taguchi, N. (2005). Japanese teachers� perceptions and practice of the communicative
approach. The Language Teacher, 29(3), 3-11.
http://www.jalt-publications.org/tlt/articles/2002/12/taguchi
Japanese EFL Teachers' Perceptions of Communicative, Audiolingual and Yakudoku Activities, by Greta Gorsuch
http://epaa.asu.edu/ojs/article/view/339
At the local level then, the day-to-day supervision of ALTs is often left to Japanese teachers of English, who resent the extra workload (3 citations)
Yukawa (1992, 1994) documented changes in the teaching
of a male JTE at a high school as a result of team teaching with an ALT. Generally, the JTE stopped using the traditional yakudoku translation method and began using communicative methods in class. When the JTE and ALT's teaching relationship ended, 7 of 27 however, Yukawa found that the JTE reverted back to teaching in traditional ways.
[Glenski notes that the following doesn't help build relationships or perceptions, either:] schools schedule ALTs for classes in quite different ways, with some schools sending ALTs to a new school every day ("one-shot visits"), to schools that have JTEs and ALTs maintain a regular thrice weekly team teaching schedule in one classroom. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Glenski wrote: |
| this is not just my opinion, but that of many/most people on several forums over a decade of teaching in Japan. What is not clear to you? |
Eikaiwa teaching has been severely criticised for far longer than the last ten years. |
Yes, I know, and thank you. My statement above is taken a bit out of context, but thanks. It still supports my view. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: |
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The whole marketplace for ALT's is highly suspect. Unqualified teaching assistants (they aren't teachers unless qualified) should not be let loose on young children.
One of the reasons schools are often keen to have a foreigner ALT there is that if they don't and other schools do then it looks bad. The current requirements mean the best you can hope for is that your ALT is friendly, doesn't rock the boat and doesn't molest the kids. Remember there are usually no background checks for ALT's other than a rudimentary reference from a previous employer.
International schools in Japan usually demand their teachers are fully qualified and often vetted. Japanese schools demand their teachers are qualified, not sure about the vetting process for them. There's no reason for Japanese high schools to be letting in unqualified foreigners. Especially if, as seems to be the case, there are a shortage of jobs and many people looking for ALT work.
By all means let graduates do conversational adult eikaiwa work, but working in primary and high schools? There needs to be legislation to make sure the people with access to vulnerable children are suitable for the job. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Japanese schools demand their teachers are qualified, not sure about the vetting process for them. There's no reason for Japanese high schools to be letting in unqualified foreigners. |
Sorry, but that is not necessarily the case. Private JHS/HS hire solo teachers directly (whether FT or PT). I used to work in one. Nobody was "qualified". The closest anyone came in the 4 years I worked there was a woman who had gone through JET in another school. What happens is that FTers have to apply for a license (rinji), which is accomplished only by providing translations of resume, transcripts, and degree parchments. That's it.
| Quote: |
| By all means let graduates do conversational adult eikaiwa work, but working in primary and high schools? There needs to be legislation to make sure the people with access to vulnerable children are suitable for the job. |
Uh, you do realize that vulnerable children also attend eikaiwa, don't you? At least in elem ed, there's a HR teacher present. |
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starteacher
Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the links Glenski. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Japanese schools demand their teachers are qualified, not sure about the vetting process for them. There's no reason for Japanese high schools to be letting in unqualified foreigners. |
Sorry, but that is not necessarily the case. Private JHS/HS hire solo teachers directly (whether FT or PT). I used to work in one. Nobody was "qualified". |
I was speaking about Japanese school teachers, who I presume have to have a Japanese teaching license? If that's not the case in private schools then that's pretty awful. Being "qualified" should be a fundamental, standardised and monitored requirement for teaching children in schools not a mish-mash of experiences and uncorroborated recommendations. Even if you're hiring people for those reasons anyone working with kids should at least have a police check done. As these are requirements, and not just for teaching but for anyone working near children, in the UK, Australia and many US States it would be pretty straightforward for ALT's to produce one.
| Glenski wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| By all means let graduates do conversational adult eikaiwa work, but working in primary and high schools? There needs to be legislation to make sure the people with access to vulnerable children are suitable for the job. |
Uh, you do realize that vulnerable children also attend eikaiwa, don't you? |
I said adult eikaiwa lessons. There should be separate classes for children.
| Glenski wrote: |
| At least in elem ed, there's a HR teacher present. |
The fact that an HR teacher may be present makes little difference as the ALT will still have the freedom to mix with children and move about the school unsupervised. |
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