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| Which of the two degree/certificate holders with experience qualify to teach in Taiwan public schools? |
| 1. A CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma holder with 6 + years experience teaching L2 learners over overseas. |
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14% |
[ 1 ] |
| 2. A state side certified teacher with 6+ years experience teaching L1 learners state side or in the country that certified them. |
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57% |
[ 4 ] |
| 3. Both CELTA/TESOL certificate/diploma and state certified holders. |
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28% |
[ 2 ] |
| 4. Neither |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 7 |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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 Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:08 am Post subject: CELTA/TESOL certificate vs. state side license for TW PS? |
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Korea, Japan, China and Thailand doesn't require an EFL teacher to possess a state side license to teach L2 learners.
Why Taiwan?
What are the disadvantages and advantages of having either one or both? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: |
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Considering what foreign teachers do in public schools in Asia, I am guessing that most qualified teachers would not be very happy with these jobs.
Furthermore, I wanted to saw this before.
How about a better idea? Instead of wasting money and talent, why not actually try to use foreign teachers who want to stay in Korea, Taiwan, etc.?
Why not form an alternative certification program which would allow foregn teachers with several years experience in Taiwan earn a Taiwanese teacher's license or it could be a seperate English teaching license for foreigners?
With the completion of the degree and job offer teachers could be offered 10 year visas to teach in Taiwan.
Why have so many fly by the radar teachers, why not invest in foreign teachers who want to stay long term in Asia?
Maybe public schools could employ one foreign English teacher for ever three Taiwanese teachers. I am not suggesting that schools hire extra teachers. Just replace retiring Taiwanese teachers with a long term foreign teacher. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Your proposal is nice, but not doable. If the Government adopted similar policy to that of Thailand then it would be a much better deal for experienced EFL teachers that have taught and live abroad; particularly in Taiwan.
You need a teacher license to teach legally in Thailand, but all you need to do is submit your credentials and documents to the school, and they will apply for your teacher license; at least that is what the public school I worked at did for me.
I really don�t understand how being state licensed teachers from America with L1 teaching experience makes them more qualified than experienced overseas CELTA/TESOL certified teachers that have experience teaching L2 learners. I don�t see the major benefits with the state side license requirement. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Your proposal is nice, but not doable. If the Government adopted similar policy to that of Thailand then it would be a much better deal for experienced EFL teachers that have taught and live abroad; particularly in Taiwan. |
It is doable. Not to mention that instead of having a full set of Taiwanese teachers and a foreign teacher, then could use a trained foreign teacher and have on less Taiwanese teacher, which would save money.
Part of the alternative license would be that foreign teachers would have to take Chinese classes that would bring them to at least an intermediate level of Chinese. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Your proposal is nice, but not doable. If the Government adopted similar policy to that of Thailand then it would be a much better deal for experienced EFL teachers that have taught and live abroad; particularly in Taiwan. |
It is doable. Not to mention that instead of having a full set of Taiwanese teachers and a foreign teacher, then could use a trained foreign teacher and have on less Taiwanese teacher, which would save money.
Part of the alternative license would be that foreign teachers would have to take Chinese classes that would bring them to at least an intermediate level of Chinese. |
The teacher unions wouldn't go along with it. There would be tension between foreign and native teachers as a result of laying off or replacing Taiwanese teachers with foreign ones.
In Korea, a lot of the Korean English teachers in the public schools hated having foreigners in their classrooms and often would try to marginalized the native English speakers into being useless robots. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The teacher unions wouldn't go along with it. There would be tension between foreign and native teachers as a result of laying off or replacing Taiwanese teachers with foreign ones. |
I do agree that it could be a difficult fight but we would probably only be talking about 200 foreign teachers. Furthermore, it is really backwards thinking to not allow skilled foreign workers into you country. Countries need to progress. Most of the top economies in the world allow talented people into their country. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| I do agree that it could be a difficult fight but we would probably only be talking about 200 foreign teachers. Furthermore, it is really backwards thinking to not allow skilled foreign workers into you country. Countries need to progress. Most of the top economies in the world allow talented people into their country. |
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/biz/archives/2007/07/14/2003369546
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According to National Immigration Agency statistics, there are 314,000-plus foreign laborers and more than 14,000 foreign white-collar workers in the country.
Of the latter group, more than 5,000 are teachers, more than 3,000 are business professionals and more than 2,000 are engineers. |
To be honest with you, I am only looking to know how people feel about CELTA/TESOL qualified vs. state side certified teachers teaching in Taiwan�s public schools. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: |
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What did you post these stats? I was talking about foreign teachers in high schools/ government schools. I was not talking about all foreign English teachers.
Anyways, I am offering a better alternative. Why bother with one year certified math teacher's from the US or Canada when you could develop a system that would cultivate long term foreign English teachers in Taiwanese schools. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
I do agree that it could be a difficult fight but we would probably only be talking about 200 foreign teachers. Furthermore, it is really backwards thinking to not allow skilled foreign workers into you country. Countries need to progress. Most of the top economies in the world allow talented people into their country..........
What did you post these stats? I was talking about foreign teachers in high schools/ government schools. I was not talking about all foreign English teachers. |
Sorry, I wasn't able to extrapolate from your above comment that you were referring to "foreign teachers in high school". I thought that you meant "skilled foreign workers into your country". Often, it�s difficult for me to infer what someone here is saying. Sometimes, I read while I am doing a fly-by.
| Quote: |
| Anyways, I am offering a better alternative. Why bother with one year certified math teacher's from the US or Canada when you could develop a system that would cultivate long term foreign English teachers in Taiwanese schools. |
Personally, I don't think that there is a need for long term foreign teachers in Taiwanese public schools. I am just trying to understand why the government feels that "state certified teachers'" are more qualified to teach in Taiwanese public schools than foreign teachers with CELTA/TESOL certificates. Because I don't think that state side certified teachers are anymore skilled or moral than teachers that have taught L2 learners overseas. For instance, here is a case of a certified teacher in California getting arrested for drinking in school.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100326/ap_on_re_us/us_odd_drunken_teaching
I don't want this thread to get all distorted with different kinds of debates than the one I have put forth. I would just like to have people vote on the above questions. I am sure that there is a mod here that would just love to ban me for getting into a debate that doesn�t please his/her palate. Whatever� |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't want this thread to get all distorted with different kinds of debates than the one I have put forth. I would just like to have people vote on the above questions. I am sure that there is a mod here that would just love to ban me for getting into a debate that doesn�t please his/her palate. Whatever� |
And I am simplifying say that developing long term trained foreign teachers would be more useful than have a different foreign teacher every two years. Why stop at having someone with the CELTA? Just start a program to train foreign teachers who have been working in Taiwan and want to stay.
They could use classes that already exist for Taiwanese English teachers. |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't want this thread to get all distorted with different kinds of debates than the one I have put forth. I would just like to have people vote on the above questions. I am sure that there is a mod here that would just love to ban me for getting into a debate that doesn�t please his/her palate. Whatever� |
And I am simplifying say that developing long term trained foreign teachers would be more useful than have a different foreign teacher every two years. Why stop at having someone with the CELTA? Just start a program to train foreign teachers who have been working in Taiwan and want to stay.
They could use classes that already exist for Taiwanese English teachers. |
Riiiiight. Thank you for your input.  |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: |
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(remove)
Last edited by Rooster_2006 on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Zipper, I agree with you, but I think you need to change your tactics if you want to change popular opinion or the law.
Instead of trying to argue that CELTA + 6 years >= teacher's license + 6 years, PULL OUT THE BIG GUNS!
Argue that an MA TESOL + 6 years > teacher's license + 6 years.
It is MUCH harder for the opposition to refute that one.
When you make the argument about CELTA+experience, you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.
When you make the argument about MA TESOL+experience, you're bringing a double-barreled anti-aircraft gun and a kevlar vest to a gun fight.
Or, if you feel like bringing a Davy Crockett tactical nuclear recoilless gun to a gun fight, inquire as to why a PhD in Applied Linguistics (with no state license)+6 years can't teach at a public school.
See what I'm saying?
The opposition will create straw men (like 18-year-old kids with CELTA), so you should pre-empt them by creating mighty, amazing straw men like Nobel Prize-winning, PhD-holding masters of their field who just don't happen to be state certified.
Better yet -- you could whip out the simple, concise (and true) phrase that "Taiwan's laws are so arbitrary, the masters of the English language ERNEST HEMINGWAY AND WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE couldn't have taught at public schools here!" |
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zipper
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 237
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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Is it true that there is no official Taiwan government educational policy that mandates all public schools to hire licensed teachers from other countries to teach EFL in public schools? Is it only Taiwan public schools that adopt this policy, and/or is it recruiters pushing this to make teachers look more professional and desirable?
I see that a few posters have voted, but none have offered an articulated opinion or reason that supports their choice from the above narrowly defined list. It�s not my intention to bash state side licensed teachers. I am only trying to decipher what logic is used by Taiwan public schools and recruiters for preferring state side licensed teachers. Why do they feel that state side licensed teachers with experience teaching L1 learners of any subject are more qualified than CELTA/TESOL certified teachers with overseas experience teaching L2 learners? I would like someone to give a convincing argument that supports their choice. I am not looking for a fight here. I am honestly trying to understand why a state sided license teacher is considered more qualified to teach EFL than someone without a stateside license, but who has taught EFL for a lot of years overseas. It is just a simple question, really. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Why do they feel that state side licensed teachers with experience teaching L1 learners of any subject are more qualified than CELTA/TESOL certified teachers with overseas experience teaching L2 learners? |
You are making a big assumption. They probably don't have any opinion on it. They just think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools.
I might ask the question why do governments in western countries think that teachers need to be certified to teach in public schools?
Why not hire people who get the best results and stop worrying about requiring people to jump through hoops that may or may not make them a better teacher?
Last edited by JZer on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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