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caleypatrick
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 63
Location: Sichuan
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 Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Well, Gene, you've certainly missed the point. If you read my initial post, you will see that I acknowledged that I made a mistake inadvertently changing my class without permission. I have no qualms with the rule and the uni's ability to enforce this reasonable contract provision. What I find offensive is their need for a pound of flesh for a simple mistake that improved student/teacher relations and ensured all 54 students received the necessary instruction. To me, it is simply an abuse of authority when there are no means or forms of sanction specified in my contract. Gene, you may choose to suckle your way out of a similar situation by rendering obsequious compromise and licking boots with three bags full, but I will not.
BTW, in my former career I negotiated collective agreements with some of the largest unions in North America. My take is that one should always negotiate from a position of strength, and especially when the other party demonstrates a plentiful lack of respect for your position. I be doing that if you have the ability to fathom all the wrinkles here.
P.S. Should they sack me, I've done my research and there are other MBA professionals here at the college who could and would love to fill my void.
Kukiv: Thanks for your support. I'm of the same mindset to say the least. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe I'm one of the few FTs who are making a career in China. I've continued studying, am more qualified and experienced and have worked at increasingly better schools. Also, when I first came to China 4 years ago I earned 3500rmb a month. From my next contract I'll be earning over 20,000rmb a month. |
I'm very interested in the above quote - are you talking career as in a job where you can keep with one employer and work your way up a ladder - or are you talking about job jumping from one lower paying job to another higher paying position - ditching one employer for another. If its the second then its not really career you're talking about - but more a panache for being a professional opportunist.
I too have vastly increased my income - and it all came about by jumping at chances (in fact jumping out of the teaching game altogether) and grabbing then with two hands. Nothing much to do with fine upstanding virtues like loyalty to employer - more to do with being a ruthless go getter.
In fact one of the shockers about working in China - is how being loyal and obedient to an employer, career wise, so often seems to get you nowhere 
By sticking to his guns, being ruthless, not compromising when cornered - I think the OP has shown the "stuff" it takes to be a FT in China!!!!! If he decided to stay in China - I doubt, if that was what he was interested in, it would take him long to sort his way from the crap to the 20k jobs. |
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Lobster
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 2040
Location: Somewhere under the Sea
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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I can't agree that being stubborn, ruthless and uncompromising are the key characteristics of a successful FT here. In fact, I'd say it's the antithesis of what one needs to get by here. However, it's true that different people have wildly different experiences here.
Well you asked what we thought of your situation and now you see it. Some agree with you and feel that it's almost your duty, as a true FT rebel, to "stick it to the man". Other just see you as a loose cannon who doesn't honor a contract or know how to get out of a sticky situation you've created for yourself.
For me it doesn't matter much, because I don't think you really care about the job or will consider hanging around long once the "new" has worn off. I think that your accumulated skills will help you a lot in an American work environment, but sadly I don't think they will be of much use here. I think you did the right thing by taking the extra class (although I think it was unfair of them), and that's where it should have stopped for you.
I do find it incredibly naive that you would think you wouldn't get heavy static for changing the schedule without approval. I think almost any FT with a year's experience would know how much trouble that would cause, but for some reason you're surprised. This, to me, is an indication of a mindset that can precipitate a harsh reaction from people like your FAO. Fact is, it's the school that pays you. The FAO is your boss, and under the Chinese education scheme, he is also the students' boss.
See, you knew it was wrong to do it, but you did it anyway in spite of your contract and he felt aggrieved. Now he's done something wrong, and it's not contractual, and you feel aggrieved (ironic isn't it?). You can take a hike back home, but he can't. You quickly moved to the last step - a threat to quit. That leaves them the choice to let you quit, fire you or blow it off. They won't push you because they need a teacher, but you are probably an admin pariah. It's all good -- you will probably never know, nor will you care much, about what they think of you.
Here's another small bit of unsolicited Lobster advice: You know how you were taught that "two wrongs don't make a right?" Well you can forget about that, because here they do. It's the kind of advice your parents gave you that never made it across the sea; like "always look both ways before crossing the street", "do unto others" and "don't play with fire". You see that around here somewhere? Me neither.
RED
RED |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| are the key characteristics of a successful FT here. |
so putting up with crap leads to what kind of success - more pay, a long-term ladder climbing career with a single employer, getting treated as one of the lads, being allowed to work your way into one of those management positions??????
If we we all worked for one of those Joint venture projects - or an international school that might be the case - but an anonymous uni in a second tier city in a second tier province!!!!!!!!!
I doubt that the OP has destroyed his chances of a successful career - but his actions have certainly taken both him and his students on a learning curve.
Teaching on how not to bow down to dogmatic authority - is the type of useful lesson that often sticks in a students mind!!!!! |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| kukiv wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Maybe I'm one of the few FTs who are making a career in China. I've continued studying, am more qualified and experienced and have worked at increasingly better schools. Also, when I first came to China 4 years ago I earned 3500rmb a month. From my next contract I'll be earning over 20,000rmb a month. |
I'm very interested in the above quote - are you talking career as in a job where you can keep with one employer and work your way up a ladder - or are you talking about job jumping from one lower paying job to another higher paying position - ditching one employer for another. If its the second then its not really career you're talking about - but more a panache for being a professional opportunist.
I too have vastly increased my income - and it all came about by jumping at chances (in fact jumping out of the teaching game altogether) and grabbing then with two hands. Nothing much to do with fine upstanding virtues like loyalty to employer - more to do with being a ruthless go getter.
In fact one of the shockers about working in China - is how being loyal and obedient to an employer, career wise, so often seems to get you nowhere
By sticking to his guns, being ruthless, not compromising when cornered - I think the OP has shown the "stuff" it takes to be a FT in China!!!!! If he decided to stay in China - I doubt, if that was what he was interested in, it would take him long to sort his way from the crap to the 20k jobs. |
kukiv,
You seem unhappy. I'm sorry that my post isn't going to make you happier.
When I say "career" I mean "an occupation undertaken for a significant period of a person's life and with opportunities for progress" (Apple dictionary).
Why is it better for me to stay with one employer?
Why is it worse for me to change employers?
Why are you talking about loyalty to employers? I'm as loyal as each contract requires me to be.
I'm not ruthless and I try not to cause trouble. I'm not here to change China. I'm here to improve my situation and my family's situation. I do my job and try to get some satisfaction out of it. I'm paid for my work. I go home and spend time with my family.
I don't need to cause problems at work in order to give value to my life.
I don't understand why you seem to be inciting rebellion. |
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caleypatrick
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 63
Location: Sichuan
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Lobster wrote: |
See, you knew it was wrong to do it, but you did it anyway in spite of your contract and he felt aggrieved. Now he's done something wrong, and it's not contractual, and you feel aggrieved (ironic isn't it?). You can take a hike back home, but he can't. You quickly moved to the last step - a threat to quit. That leaves them the choice to let you quit, fire you or blow it off. They won't push you because they need a teacher, but you are probably an admin pariah. It's all good -- you will probably never know, nor will you care much, about what they think of you.
Here's another small bit of unsolicited Lobster advice: You know how you were taught that "two wrongs don't make a right?" Well you can forget about that, because here they do. It's the kind of advice your parents gave you that never made it across the sea; like "always look both ways before crossing the street", "do unto others" and "don't play with fire". You see that around here somewhere? Me neither.
RED
RED |
Red: Nice read, but I'm afraid I did not know that I had done anything wrong. I thought I was doing right by letting them know that I had changed the class. Yes, when they raised cane I did glance at the small print in the contract and, OOPs, me made a booobooo. If I had known and deliberately violated the contract, you would be correct in your assessment of me and my situation.
Thanks for the advice: Two wrongs do make it right, or so I am led to believe. I thought so. We think alike. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| with opportunities for progress |
ahhhhhhhhhh the progress - so you've progressed from one of those always to be reviewed every year jobs - looks like your trying to make a life of it in China - so their must be a pension included in their somewhere, together with all those other perks that are feathering your future nest-egg???????
Dictionary definition or not - I think concept of career - as in a good stable career - includes a touch of security that is certainly far removed from a job position that comes up for review each and every year
In the normal FT world somebody in the 20000 class has to endure exactly the same market whims as those in 3500 league - and in fact are more at risk since the their jobs, at the top of the pyramid, are harder to find. In fact to gain that sort of money you have to migrate to those expensive cities like Shanghai where 20K, especially if supporting and housing a family wont take you that far. Sure I suppose its a career - but when you get to that 20000 pinnacle, apart from the hang on to the top of the pyramid time, where does it go from there????
China FT jobs can be fun, can be used for many purposes to both enjoy life and your time in China - but, with the typical FT/employer set-up, even at the dizzy heights of 20k/month, as to building a long-term China teaching career??????????????????????????
Even using China as stepping stone to something better is often regarded as something of a challenge!
And to my supposed happiness - well happy or unhappy that won't make a jot of difference to any career whether that be an FT in China or Antarctica - I'm just simply writing how it is, and applauding someone who thinks that its worth making a few waves to get over a point. |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| kukiv wrote: |
| Quote: |
| with opportunities for progress |
ahhhhhhhhhh the progress - so you've progressed from one of those always to be reviewed every year jobs - looks like your trying to make a life of it in China - so their must be a pension included in their somewhere, together with all those other perks that are feathering your future nest-egg???????
Dictionary definition or not - I think concept of career - as in a good stable career - includes a touch of security that is certainly far removed from a job position that comes up for review each and every year
In the normal FT world somebody in the 20000 class has to endure exactly the same market whims as those in 3500 league - and in fact are more at risk since the their jobs, at the top of the pyramid, are harder to find. In fact to gain that sort of money you have to migrate to those expensive cities like Shanghai where 20K, especially if supporting and housing a family wont take you that far. Sure I suppose its a career - but when you get to that 20000 pinnacle, apart from the hang on to the top of the pyramid time, where does it go from there????
China FT jobs can be fun, can be used for many purposes to both enjoy life and your time in China - but, with the typical FT/employer set-up, even at the dizzy heights of 20k/month, as to building a long-term China teaching career??????????????????????????
Even using China as stepping stone to something better is often regarded as something of a challenge!
And to my supposed happiness - well happy or unhappy that won't make a jot of difference to any career whether that be an FT in China or Antarctica - I'm just simply writing how it is, and applauding someone who thinks that its worth making a few waves to get over a point. |
kukiv,
Thank you for your concern about my career. Thank you for your concern about my future income when I'm no longer working. My wife and I have carefully considered and made decisions on both of these matters.
I'm sorry to inform you that as you are just some anonymous, seemingly very disgruntled guy who appears to want to put down someone who is generally satisfied with their life, I'm not overly concerned with what you may or may not think about my career choices or life.
It does strike me as odd though that you give so much importance to trying to teach Chinese university staff 'a lesson'. In life there are many battles to be fought, why go looking for them with people who mean nothing to us about things that are really non-issues?
I also find it a bit strange that if you're no longer a teacher, have found a much better life style, and seem unhappy with how most teachers wish to lead an unproblematic life why you frequent and post on this forum - and do so so aggressively. |
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kukiv
Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Posts: 328
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| It does strike me as odd though that you give so much importance to trying to teach Chinese university staff 'a lesson'. In life there are many battles to be fought, why go looking for them with people who mean nothing to us about things that are really non-issues? |
Am I reading this right - for those employed in teaching English the Chinese teaching staff mean nothing????????? I think it's the Chinese management that set the vast majority of the agendas in a China teaching job - the spirit with which they go about doing their work is surely something that makes or breaks a job for most FT's
In this thread we have an FT who has run up against his own personal managerial brick-wall - and has decided to hit it couple of times with hammer before retreating away. Of course he's not going to knock it down - but who want to shurk away, especially in a dead end career situation the OP finds himself in, without even trying to knock out a small chip???????????
As for the career content of posts here - well if they're now progressing from a general description of how things are to an off-topic personal pissing match about, posting styles, posting agendas and who earns what and who has the most - then I suppose if posters really want to follow that angle its best to go to pm's  |
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gene
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 2:45 am Post subject: |
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Well, Gene, you've certainly missed the point. If you read my initial post, you will see that I acknowledged that I made a mistake inadvertently changing my class without permission. I have no qualms with the rule and the uni's ability to enforce this reasonable contract provision. What I find offensive is their need for a pound of flesh for a simple mistake that improved student/teacher relations and ensured all 54 students received the necessary instruction. To me, it is simply an abuse of authority when there are no means or forms of sanction specified in my contract. Gene, you may choose to suckle your way out of a similar situation by rendering obsequious compromise and licking boots with three bags full, but I will not.
BTW, in my former career I negotiated collective agreements with some of the largest unions in North America. My take is that one should always negotiate from a position of strength, and especially when the other party demonstrates a plentiful lack of respect for your position. I be doing that if you have the ability to fathom all the wrinkles here.
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In that case I think you should have broke out some of those negotiation skills to insure that your class continues on a path towards finishing the school year with the least amount of disruption. Your position of strength is based on the conflict between you and the administrator with your class as collateral damage. What I don't understand is how an agreement negotiator for some of the largest unions would overlook a standard inclusion of most educational contracts. If your stating these past laurels as a point of proof then what went wrong during your spot negotiation in the school room with the one student present and how could you have improved on that interaction. This would be an excellent chance to dissect the process of your negotiation and see how it could have been improved so that the results will not be nearly so dramatic as a disruption of the school year for your class by a teacher leaving.
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| This is hillaroius - I think the poster must have been confused and made a mistake when posting that last piece on Dave's. Obviously it was intended for a forum that dealt with how to get a fast track career in corporate America |
I kind of find this hilarious as well but I think in this thread is one of the answer as to why the FAOs are often so aggressive with rules and consequences. I would reckon this poster feels that acting professional is only valid on North American soil and is perhaps the reason so many teachers are treated in the manor described by the op. Many in China (ExPat and Chinese)come to expect this kind of attitude from FTs and thus retort with the kind of over reaction illustrated by the Administrator in the OP's first post. Perhaps caleypatrick will find the reason for the conflict is the FAO's prior experience with a "rebel". |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: conflict resolution 101 |
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Commone Dave,
It is time to put in the course CR101!!!!!!!
Conflict Resolution of course.
Otherwise, too many will be asking "Why am I on this side of the Pacific?"
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flyingscotsman
Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 339
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:51 am Post subject: |
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I had this situation come up several times and found the BEST way for me to change a class time without me actually doing it was to have the CLASS MONITOR do it.
When I asked it took them DAYS to consider it and a dozen emails.
I would speak to the class monitor and if SHE liked the idea she would disappear for about 10 minutes and come back with a smile and say ALL DONE TEACHER! Needless to say she got taken out for dinner more than once. |
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JGC458
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| kukiv wrote: |
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| It does strike me as odd though that you give so much importance to trying to teach Chinese university staff 'a lesson'. In life there are many battles to be fought, why go looking for them with people who mean nothing to us about things that are really non-issues? |
Am I reading this right - for those employed in teaching English the Chinese teaching staff mean nothing????????? I think it's the Chinese management that set the vast majority of the agendas in a China teaching job - the spirit with which they go about doing their work is surely something that makes or breaks a job for most FT's
In this thread we have an FT who has run up against his own personal managerial brick-wall - and has decided to hit it couple of times with hammer before retreating away. Of course he's not going to knock it down - but who want to shurk away, especially in a dead end career situation the OP finds himself in, without even trying to knock out a small chip???????????
As for the career content of posts here - well if they're now progressing from a general description of how things are to an off-topic personal pissing match about, posting styles, posting agendas and who earns what and who has the most - then I suppose if posters really want to follow that angle its best to go to pm's |
kukiv,
This is getting a bit boring now (well, has been for a while...)
Chinese staff create a teaching position for an FT. The FT agrees to do the job, signs a contract to that effect, works, gets paid. Where in all this is it assumed that an FT should try to change the way a school runs itself? And if an FT tries to do so then s/he is breaking the contract s/he freely chose to sign.
The OP admitted to making a mistake. Most of us know he made a few mistakes.
You say he's standing up for himself. But what is he going to achieve? If he "wins", the Chinese guy will hate him (and all other Chinese staff and maybe students as well). If he loses, then the Chinese guy will despise him and so will other Chinese as well. Not sure how either outcome will improve the quality of the OP's life in the short or long term.
Trying to beat the Chinese at their game isn't about hitting them or threatening them or humiliating them - we FTs will always lose if we do that. It's about FTs (cleverly, and probably taking our time) orchestrating a win-win situation where we get (most) of what we want and the Chinese get something in return or at the very least don't lose face.
Seems some people don't understand that we are in a different country with different rules. We may teach English, but we still have to live by Chinese rules. When will some people finally understand that? |
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caleypatrick
Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 63
Location: Sichuan
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 7:49 am Post subject: |
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JGCwhomever:
So, what you're saying is take your punishment like a man, find a win-win situation, and move on?
Or, are you really saying to find a good supply of KY Jelly? After all, they are providing a decent apartment and a fine wage of $900 U.S. monthly and for only 14 hours weekly of class instruction. Yep, I think you're right. I'll just load up on KY Jelly and pull em down when the master comes calling. |
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LanGuTou
Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Shandong
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| caleypatrick wrote: |
JGCwhomever:
So, what you're saying is take your punishment like a man, find a win-win situation, and move on?
Or, are you really saying to find a good supply of KY Jelly? After all, they are providing a decent apartment and a fine wage of $900 U.S. monthly and for only 14 hours weekly of class instruction. Yep, I think you're right. I'll just load up on KY Jelly and pull em down when the master comes calling. |
Whatever happens from here on, I am sure you will find that you cannot win in this situation. In China, common sense and reason stand for nothing.
You have probably ruffled Mr Fao's feathers. In this strictly hierarchal nation, even the merest hint of authority means everything to the beholder. The FAO is probably as proud as punch that he has a little power over foreigners. He has probably told all of his friends and family. Then you go behind his back and do something without asking him first! Tut, tut! Shame on you!
Reading between the lines, I guess he wants to deduct a couple of hours' pay from your salary. What is that? 100 or so yuan? Is it worth the hassle of fighting it?
I have found with university jobs, allow them their little hour of glory. There always seems to be a chance to pinch it back later. If they want to be obnoxious, secretly start your exams one week early. At the end of term in Chinese universities it is often easy to get away with because all the students and teachers have on their mind is their own finals.A bit of crafty manipulation is often better than direct confrontation.
Remember, due to the wonderful Chinese you know who, you need a release letter and/or recommendation to change jobs. You need to keep the FAO on your side. Hack him off now and it will come back to bite you later. The same applies to renewing the contract.
This would be my advice! |
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