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Asda
Joined: 01 Jun 2008
Posts: 231
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 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Asda wrote: |
| No, I've heard it's the highest in raw numbers as well...over 6000 per year - more than many a war!!! |
Funny how one always hears things like this that are so easily proven to be completely wrong.
But it is sadly high, as it is in all Gulf countries, for the size of their populations.
VS |
My source is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlUplHf3OoA |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Dear sheikher,
"Serendipitously"??? I think NOT. Clearly it was predestined that you would surf the web and discover that interview.
Regards,
John
P.S. As for Mr, Pipes, my opinion of him and his "writings" can't be posted on a "family-orientated website." (But let's not forget that even a stopped clock is right twice a day.) |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Asda wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| Asda wrote: |
| No, I've heard it's the highest in raw numbers as well...over 6000 per year - more than many a war!!! |
Funny how one always hears things like this that are so easily proven to be completely wrong.
But it is sadly high, as it is in all Gulf countries, for the size of their populations.
VS |
My source is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlUplHf3OoA |
I assume that you weren't presenting this as proof of what you "heard." 
VS
(and I too will refrain from any comments on Mr Pipes) |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:20 am Post subject: |
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Dear Johnslat
Thanks for your reply, it brings a smile  to my face that you have been able to understand that a religion can always be misinterpreted differently due to circumstance such as culture and education.
UmmKhadija |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| ummkhadija wrote: |
Dear Johnslat
Thanks for your reply, it brings a smile :) to my face that you have been able to understand that a religion can always be misinterpreted differently due to circumstance such as culture and education.
UmmKhadija |
Actually, although I had attributed some of the mindset associated with the driving here as being due to fatalism, the Sultan of Oman last fall presented the same argument. So I am not just blowing smoke.
The Sultan exhorted the people of Oman to stop the carnage on the highways. telling them that it is indeed a misunderstanding to think that your complete fate is in Allah's hands therefore you are not responsible. He said that you are accountable for the pain and suffering you cause others by the damage done with reckless driving, and you have both the free will and accountability to stop it.
As in all religions, what is in the text and what is "gospel" so to speak, is not necessarily what the masses understand and practice. I see with my students on a daily basis an abdication of responsibility based on insha'allah.
I am not a fool, and cannot imagine an ethically based religion not imposing responsibilities on its adherents. But that is not what is heard and practiced by the masses. There is unfortunate truth in the expression "the masses are asses". And they will often believe whatever justifies their behavior.
I am rather neutral about Islam, as religions go. I am a relativistic agnostic I suppose. Religions are all equally interesting and equally foreign to me. |
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Never Ceased To Be Amazed
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 3500
Location: Shhh...don't talk to me...I'm playin' dead...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:58 am Post subject: |
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Actually, once again...I should suggest that posters go experience "Islam on the ground" in saudi before lecturing others on the tenets of the religion...
After THAT experience, one may not be so quick to challenge when exposed to the saudi context...
NCTBA |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dear NCTBA
| Quote: |
| Actually, once again...I should suggest that posters go experience "Islam on the ground" in saudi before lecturing others on the tenets of the religion... |
As a one who posted my comments about Islam, I am just clarifying a few things about Islam. I am not trying to clarify what the Saudis do, or how they act. All I wanted to help Isabel see is that its not a fatalistic religion, and that even though Saudis may be perceived as more fatalistic it is not fair to assume that Islam itself is a religion of fatalism. Its the individual that chooses to use that mindset.
I know I am in for a shocker, but this does not mean that I cannot try to remove the misconceptions of the religion. Most religions get ripped to shreds because a few people misconstrue it with their lack of education, culture, and their personal beliefs about a Creator. All I was doing was trying to shed a more knowledgeable insight into how islam is not a fatalistic religion.
Thanks,
UmmKhadija |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| ummkhadija wrote: |
Dear NCTBA
| Quote: |
| Actually, once again...I should suggest that posters go experience "Islam on the ground" in saudi before lecturing others on the tenets of the religion... |
As a one who posted my comments about Islam, I am just clarifying a few things about Islam. I am not trying to clarify what the Saudis do, or how they act. All I wanted to help Isabel see is that its not a fatalistic religion, and that even though Saudis may be perceived as more fatalistic it is not fair to assume that Islam itself is a religion of fatalism. Its the individual that chooses to use that mindset.
I know I am in for a shocker, but this does not mean that I cannot try to remove the misconceptions of the religion. Most religions get ripped to shreds because a few people misconstrue it with their lack of education, culture, and their personal beliefs about a Creator. All I was doing was trying to shed a more knowledgeable insight into how islam is not a fatalistic religion.
Thanks,
UmmKhadija |
Thanks but no thanks for the offer. I have lived in the Middle East long enough, and am enough of a scholar, to have a quite informed opinion about Islam and religion. I probably have way more education, both formal and otherwise than you, and a much more worldly perspective on culture, too, it would appear. Condescension is never becoming or helpful.
It is amazing how many people who have not been to the ME themselves are better informed and educated about it than those of us who live here. |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Isabel
I am sorry if you have been offended, but I was just clarifying a misconception. I hardly believe I have been condescending, but than again most people do not like to speak about religion. I am not implying I am a scholar, nor more worldy than you, but I have been in the gulf, and other countries, but I am not expert on any of the countries I have lived in or visited, but I guess you have been in the countries long enough to know that you need know, and learning from outside sources (at least what I have to say is not in your interest).
Which is just fine, you have given some good insights on most of your posts, its unfortunate that my reply offended you.
UmmKhadija |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think there's really any disagreement here. I'm sure we're all quite aware of the differences between what a religion can actually say/teach and the numerous, often diametrically opposed, "interpretations" that some/many adherents can ascribe to that.
How could Islam be "fatalistic" when what is sometimes called "the great Jihad" is the struggle of each individual to overcome faults and to strive for submission to God's will?
"We are now returning from the lesser Jihad to the greater Jihad , the Jihad against the self." The Prophet is reported to have said during the Farewell Pilgrimage, "... The Fighter in the Way of Allah is he who makes jihad against himself (jahada nafsah) for the sake of obeying Allah."
Why would such a struggle matter if everything were "predestined?"
Regards,
John |
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isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Most religions get ripped to shreds because a few people misconstrue it with their lack of education, culture, and their personal beliefs about a Creator. |
Thanks for the apology, but herein is the problem I was responding to.
My personal beliefs about a creator are really beside the point. My knowledge about the precepts as well as the practices of various faiths is what should matter.
You didn't respond to the point that the Sultan of Oman himself believes that it is fatalism, albeit a misunderstanding, that is a big factor in the road deaths in the Sultanate of Oman.
This thread has gotten off point. If you have a counter argument for the level of road deaths in the Gulf, I would like to hear it. |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa - this is NO disagreement, really, really.
One poster is writing about ISLAM, what it teaches, and others of us are writing about how that can be and has often been misunderstood by a lot of the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula.
These are two separate topics.
Regards,
John |
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ummkhadija
Joined: 06 May 2010
Posts: 105
Location: ..The resort city of Saudi Arabia..
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Isabel
| Quote: |
| You didn't respond to the point that the Sultan of Oman himself believes that it is fatalism, albeit a misunderstanding, that is a big factor in the road deaths in the Sultanate of Oman. |
Well, I thought my point before this statement explained that fatalism is not a component of Islam, so I agreed with the Sultan..people need to have control of their own actions on the road.
| Quote: |
| If you have a counter argument for the level of road deaths in the Gulf, I would like to hear it |
Well, as I have read in many posts, many drivers in KSA get their drivers license for being someone's son--so they needed not to know how to drive to begin with--no training on rules. Next if the police can't give tickets because they are afraid they may be arresting some important "someone", than how can any traffic laws really be enforced?
So, my counter is, Islam is not why these people think they need to go out and drive and not obey the rules, so that the end up dieing in a car accident (hence your theory on fatalism in Islam). I believe they have such a high accident rate because they do not enforce the traffic laws enough.
UmmKhadija
P.S.
| Quote: |
| Why would such a struggle matter if everything were "predestined?" |
.....Exactly  |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, it is road fanatism and not fatalism which is the main cause of road fatalities in the Gulf countries.
Statistically and socially speaking, fatalism and pre-determination have nothing to do with the road deaths in the Gulf. The main factors which are the causes of these road fatalities are related to the road user behaviour and poor compliance with traffic laws rather than fatalism (It is road fanatism) in the Gulf countries are:
1. Carelessness (more than 35%)
2. Excessive speed
3. Driving Opposite Direction
4. Incorrect over taking
5. Disregarding traffic red light
6. Incorrect Reversing
7. Alcohol & drugs
7. Animals (especially camels! )
8. Others (inlcuding
So the solution is to introduce/impose road traffic education combined with strict laws (with no wasta!), and this should take into account the cultural and psychological setting of people of each Gulf country! Take for example the seat belt law, in most Gulf countries this law is not respected, and consequently in case of a car accident, the fatality will increase because of seat belt was not used.
Islam has nothing to do with road accidents!
BTW, isabela, Hell has got 7 doors and 7 levels, and I hope your location is not one of them! |
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johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Dear 007,
"Statistically and socially speaking, fatalism and pre-determination have nothing to do with the road deaths in the Gulf. "
And your basis for making this totally absurd claim is???
Keep this up and I'm going to start doubting you ever WERE in the Kingdom.
Regards,
John
Regards,
John |
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