Job Discussion Forums

[Capergirl]

Do any of you have students who like to argue English grammar points? I saw a post by Shaman where he mentioned his French students did this. My Russian students also love to debate grammar and I am now teaching grammar to a student from Kuwait who is constantly asking 'why this?' and 'why not that?'. I explain why (or why not), but he (or they) continue to argue the point until I am exasperated. Why can't he (they) just accept that grammar rules are what they are? I never argued like that in French class!

Me: "Yes, you can count money, but in denominations, not just as 'money'. Money is a whole group encompassing many different denominations and currencies. We cannot say 'one money, two monies'. It is a noncount noun." (Repeat explanation every class for the next two weeks, sometimes with different nouns - "Yes, you can count grains of rice, but...") *sigh*

[Steiner]

I find using a cattle prod to induce "Electro-shock Grammar Therapy" helps them learn faster and question less.

[johnslat]

Dear Capergirl,
And what makes it worse - thanks to glorious English - is that you CAN say "monies" (although I'd prefer "moneys") in the right context:

Main Entry: 1mon�ey
Pronunciation: 'm&-nE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural moneys or mon�ies

e.g. "State Trustees' Role As Administrator
State Trustees has administered unclaimed moneys on behalf of the Department of Treasury and Finance since 16 August 1999.

Our responsibilities include:

Administering lodgements of unclaimed moneys from various organisations."

So, you tell some argumentative wise guy that money is "non-count", and sure enough, the next day he shows up with a published example of the countable version.
By the by, when teaching non-counts, I like to mention the two categories, as I call them:

1. things that are too small to count: sand, salt, dust. etc.
and
2. things (meanings, really) that are too big: money, furniture, mail, etc.

and then explain how the BIG non-counts are composed of lots of smaller counts.
Regards,
John

[khmerhit]

Also, dont forget Miss Moneypenny. You couldnt have James waltz into the office and perch on her desk, and say" You're looking lovely today, Moniespenny."

I used to have a pretty easy time of it with countables and uncountables, since my ss were obliging teenagers, though there was the odd clever wiseacre who would find an exception to the rule.

Those are good ways of dividing up the explicatory task, John. I shall try to remember in future.

khmerhit

[Stephen Jones]

Countable and uncountable is a purely arbitrary phenomenum.

Go over to the Applied Linguistics forum and you will find some people who argue that in fact all English nouns can be both, depending on context.

I disagree but there are a surprsing number that can be both.

I suspect you have a deliberately argumentative student because as far as I can tell "felous" is also uncountable in Arabic.

Incidentally, it is amazing how quickly John has forgotten Saudi. Not many in the Magic Kingdom would associate sand with anything else but vast expanses stretching to the horizon.

[leeroy]

I like grammar (sad or what?), and generally like it when students ask about it as well. But there is a certain breed, as the OP has described, that take things too far. I imagine some students take pleasure in challenging the teacher in some way. Knowing whether the "running" in

"I like running"

is a present participle or a gerund is, in its singularity, next to useless when it comes to improving your competence in English. But some still like to ask these questions, often more for the sake of testing their teacher...

[johnslat]

Dear Stephen Jones,
Saudi? Hmm, that does ring a faint bell. However, all my years in the Magic Kingdom didn't condition me into thinking of sand in terms of a "vast expanse". I continue to picture it one grain at a time - especially when considering how quickly the "sands of time" (yet another countable use of a word usually uncountable word) are running out in my "hourglass of existence".
Regards,
John

[Shaman]

Verbs tenses are usually good for kicks.

ST: I am born in ...
ME: Was.
ST: But it is truth. You said: 'General Truth' is Present Simple.(Quel idiot!)
ME: Are you sometimes born in ...?
ST: (Slight petulance) No. (Putain d'anglais...)
ME: Okay. Continue.
ST: I am living ...
ME: Live.
ST: But I am not done living there yet. (Prenez ca, batard!)
ME: This is where general truth and habit come in.
ST: * deer in headlights*
ME: Okay. Let's review Present Simple and Progessive. (Again)
ST: *Groan* But I am wanting to learn Present Perfect.
ME:

Shaman

[Stephen Jones]

Dear John,
If you looked at the sand one grain at a time that might explain how you managed to last nineteen years here.

It's not as if there's anything else left to do.

[johnslat]

Dear Stephen Jones,
Ah, but I was just following Willian Blake's suggestion:

"To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower:
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in ah hour.

So many grains, so many worlds - being bored was never a problem.

Regards,
John

[ls650]

[foster]

I tend to agree with ls650, although if they persist, I will over-load them with grammar notes until they give up and say, ok ok ok, we will agree with the teacher!!

Success by attrition! (sp?)

[shmooj]

[Shaman]

I personally enjoy this sentiment:

STUDENT A: "But it's not done like that in [insert language here]."

I've had other students get exasperated and beat me to the punch:

STUDENT B: "That's because it isn't [insert language here]."

Praise student B for insight (ie. common sense) and hope that it might sink in to student A's head. Stranger things have happened.

Shaman

[Glenski]

Capergirl,

Learn enough of your students' language to throw it right back at them. Tell them how their own grammar rules are often/sometimes bent/broken, or that some rules are just made that way from extended usage, no matter how archaic it may seem today. Maybe they will get the hint. I do this. It gets them to thinking on more than just a one-sided mindset.