Job Discussion Forums

[killthebuddha]

Sorry smccartney,

But very few verbs can be classified as strictly stative. Most verbs that are considered or taught as �stative� can also be used dynamically and progressively, with or without any change in meaning. McDonald's may be guilty of a barbarism, but I wouldn't diminish "love" because of that. Grammatically, a verb is stative (static) if it is a copula. Even the main copular verb in English, �be,� can be used dynamically as an "action" or non-stative/non-static verb:
�I am silly.� (�be� as stative)
�I am being silly.� (�be� as dynamic)
(Also, stative verbs are often intransitive until they are used dynamically, whereupon they become transitive.) Please, don�t falsely relegate �love� to a pseudo-category, especially when it�s so vital as a dynamic "action" verb:

�Knock, knock.�
�Who�s there?�
�Police�
�Police who?�
�Pa-lease open the door�We have to ask you a few questions.�
�Can you come back in 30 minutes? I�m loving my wife.� (non-stative/dynamic, McDonald's aside)

(There's a pause as the police mull over the time-frame of the crime they're investigating.)

�How long have you been loving her?�
�Oh, about 30 minutes.�

(The police consider some of the physical evidence found at the crime scene--in particular, a cigarette.)

�Do you smoke after loving your wife?� ("Smoke" is transitive because cigarettes are implied.)
�I don�t know. I never looked.� ("Smoke" [implied] is intransitive here.)

--apologies to Joan Rivers

[Glenski]

Ok, am in my office now looking at The ESL Miscellany (not compendium).

Verbs followed only by gerunds (not infinitives):
admit
anticipate
appreciate
avoid
can't help
complete
consider
delay
deny
discuss
dislike
enjoy
finish
get through
give up
imagine
keep
keep on
mention
mind
miss
postpone
practice
quit
recall
recollect
recommend
resent
resist
risk
suggest
tolerate
understand

Verbs followed by infinitives or gerunds:
can afford
attempt
can bear
begin
choose
dread
forget
go
hate
hesitate
intend
like
love
neglect
plan
prefer
pretend
regret
remember
start
can stand
stop
threaten
try


There are also verbs that are followed by infinitives, but these are more complex as they may be with an object or no object or either case.

EITHER CASE:
ask (to be excused)
beg (to differ)
expect (to learn)
need (to know)
prefer
prepare
want
would like

WITH OBJECT
advise (someone to do something)
allow
authorize
cause
challenge
command
convince
dare
encourage
forbid
force
get
help
hire
instruct
invite
oblige
order
permit
persuade
remind
request
require
teach
tell
train
urge
warn

NO OBJECT
agree (to meet at noon)
appear
arrange
care
claim
consent
decide
demand
deserve
desire
fail
guarantee
happen
hesitate
hope
know how
learn
manage
mean
offer
promise
refuse
seem
struggle
swear
tend
volunteer
wait
wish

[killthebuddha]

Great List Glenski,

(I hope you were able to copy and paste.) So, returning to the OP�s question, and strictly limiting ourselves to the infinitive and gerund as direct object (i.e., as a noun only, and omitting the infinitive or gerund phrase that can also function as an adjective or an adverb), what�s your conclusion? Should we be looking for the �combined emotional effect� of the verb and its verbal? Scanning your list, I�m looking for the most �emotional� verbs.

Amongst those which are �followed only by gerunds,� I�d elect: anticipate; appreciate; dislike; enjoy; miss; and resent.

Amongst those that can be �followed by infinitives or gerunds,� I�d choose: can bear; dread; hate; like; love; prefer; regret; and can stand.

As for those verbs �that are followed by infinitives but�are more complex as they may be with an object or no object or either case,� it isn�t clear whether these lists imply verbs which are exclusively followed by infinitives. Perhaps these lists give verbs that are most commonly followed by infinitives, but amongst them are plenty that are also capable of being followed by gerunds. Neither is it clear what constitutes the �object� of the �EITHER CASE, WITH OBJECT, NO OBJECT� categories. Is it a condition or requirement?

For example, it seems that the verbs �that are followed by infinitives� according to the �WITH OBJECT� category generally require an object to intervene between the verb and the verbal (infinitive) to operate, but several of these verbs can also function independently (without an intervening object) AND can precede a gerund: �We | authorize/ encourage/ forbid/ permit/ teach | swimming,� etc.

The OP is asking whether there is any emotional distinction between verbal forms as they relate to an emotion-laden verb. Determining this may be a loaded task, so I�m just trying a simple experiment. Because the verb choice here (like) has emotional content or force, and because it is capable of preceding a direct object verbal, I�m limiting myself to the consideration of: (a) verbs which have similar emotional content/force; (b) verbs which are capable of preceding direct object verbals (i.e., without the intervention of you, it, etc.); and (c) verbs which are amenable to transformation into verbals that can function as direct objects (again, without intervention). Also, I�m preserving the simple present tense. It�s just an idea, maybe a starting point?

To continue with the verbs from the infinitives lists, I also like: beg; prefer (also in the above list); want; would like (N.B.: Inclusion of like here is only through auxiliarization, and an argument might be made that the auxiliary affects the �emotional� component); dare; encourage; forbid; urge; demand; desire; hope; promise; swear; and wish.

For criterion (a) we have: anticipate; appreciate; dislike; enjoy; miss; resent; can bear; dread; hate; like; love; prefer; regret; can stand; beg; want; would like; dare; encourage; forbid; urge; demand; desire; hope; promise; swear; and wish. (27)

For criterion (b), we have these verbs which precede a gerund only: anticipate; appreciate; dislike; demand; enjoy; miss; resent; dread; regret; encourage; and forbid. (11)

�these verbs which precede an infinitive only: beg; want; would like; dare; urge(d); desire; hope; promise; swear; and wish. (10)

�and these verbs which can precede either: can bear; hate; like; love; prefer; and can stand. (6)

For criterion (c), we have these verbs which form a direct object gerund only: promise; (1)

�these verbs which form a direct object infinitive only: hate; love; (2)

�and these which can form either: beg; (1)

Application of criterion (b) is relatively straightforward and the results are even. However, application of criterion (c) is very constrained and won�t submit to the OP�s original formula. For (c) to work we must have at least an intervening object (such as you or it). Once we allow this the floodgates open, and the infinitive clearly prevails. It�s beyond the formula of the OP, but it�s such a tiny allowance for so great a reward that I�m determined to consider the infinitive to be the more �emotional� of the two verbal forms (at least when functioning as the direct object--as the subject I give the nod to the gerund). Considering it to be so doesn�t seem nearly as forceful. To consider it to be so seems the least forceful of all.

--ktb

[jpvanderwerf2001]

Wow. Nice work killthebuddha!

[killthebuddha]

Thanks jpvanderwerf2001,

Think it'll fly? Now I gotta find my life. Where'd I put that thing?

[Mrs McClusky]

Man if I had a penny for every time I have heard this 1, I would have several pounds by now.

I put it like this (it sounds better than it is).

It's all about being verb-dependant (verb-dependant, you like it so far??)
For example young padawan. I can say I like boxing. This can mean I like to watch boxing on tv or live and maybe or maybe not I like to do the sport too for some personal sporty reason.
Additionally, if I say I like to box, well as you can see, this shows that I appear to only like doing the actual sport and doesn't confirm my like of watching it.
It's the same with swimming, fishing and others. But becareful. It isn't the same for others. For example I can say I like eating. This should mean I like to eat food only and not I like wathing other people eat. That is just plain scarey.
I like working, ?I like to work............. mmmm............ that could be open to indiviual perspective.

This should stump them for long enough to get a new job and do a runner before they start questioning you in public about it.

[PelemPelem]

So many perspectives - here's another one, but a sematic one from the perspective of the verb "like": PP


Choice is dependant on the degree of control the Agent has over the gerund or to-infinitive,

e.g.
I don�t like to send first offenders off to prison.
(This sentence could only really be said by a judge, i.e. the agent of �sending�.)

I don�t like sending first offenders off to prison.
(This sentence could be said by the agent of �sending� or by some un-specified third party).

Duffley, P. (2004). Verbs of liking with the infinitive and the gerund. English Studies (85)4.

[killthebuddha]

jpvanderwerf2001,

Your OP has built a consensus. Congratulations!

I recently came across this (1):

Although a gerund and an infinitive will often have practically the same meaning ("Running in the park after dark can be dangerous" and "To run in the park after dark can be dangerous"), there can be a difference in meaning. Gerunds are used to describe an "actual, vivid, or fulfilled action" whereas infinitives are better used to describe "potential, hypothetical, or future events" (Frodesen & Eyring 297). This is especially true with three kinds of verbs: verbs of emotion, verbs of completion/incompletion, and verbs of remembering.

Grammar Dimensions: Form, Meaning, and Use. 2nd Ed. Jan Frodesen and Janet Eyring. Heinle & Heinle: Boston, 1997.

The above (1) references the verbal as subject.


Then this (2):

After verbs of emotion like to dread, to fear, to hate, to like, to love, and to prefer, the gerund expresses habituality, whereas the infinitive denotes an individual fact: "I normally don't like reading books, but I like to read this book." I don't like getting up in the morning in general, and I will hate to get up early tomorrow morning in particular.

http://peisker.net/nominalverbforms.htm


And this (3):

After verbs dealing with emotion, the gerund is generally used to express the vividness of an action, an event, or a state or to indicate its actual occurrence. The infinitive usually indicates a future, potential, or hypothetical action, event or state: "I usually prefer cooking my own food, but tonight I would prefer to go out." The following verbs fall into this category: hate, like, love, and prefer

http://www.cncenglish.co.kr/textbook/GLevel04/lesson6.pdf


The above (2) and (3) reference the verbal as object (our case). (2) and (3) characterize the verbals by different connotations, and (3) seems a (plagiarized?) restatement of (1). But what do you think of their sample sentences (via juxtaposition)? Maybe we can shake something out. For emotional content, I'd scrap "prefer" in favor of �hate� or "love" for juxtaposition to "like." If we plug these into the examples, what do we get?

a. "I like swimming, but I love floating."
b. "I like to swim, but I love to float."
c. "I like swimming, but I love to float."
d. "I like to swim, but I love floating."

e. �I like cooking, but I love eating out.�
f. �I like to cook, but I love to eat out.�
g. �I like cooking, but I love to eat out.�
h. �I like to cook, but I love eating out.�

Observations:
1) The emotional strength of the verb dictates/drives the emotional content of the statement;
2) "Want" is confined to the infinitive;
3) Juxtaposition sharpens or focuses the emotion;
4) Gerund/gerund pairs sound and feel more general/abstract/removed (a)(e);
5) Infinitive/infinitive pairs sound more natural and feel closer to the agent/sharper (b)(f);
6) Gerund/infinitive pairs move from general to specific and help to build an emotion that is best concluded/expressed with the infinitive(c)(g);
7) Infinitive/gerund pairs sound and feel unnatural and �inside-out� (�I like to walk but I love running.� ?? etc.) (d)(h);
8 The progression from gerund to infinitive works most naturally and powerfully with a corresponding increase in the emotional content of the verb-root (�I like walking, but I love to run.� !! etc.) (c)(g)


As has been pointed out, the gerund is more �noun-like,� and may be more susceptible to confusion (as in the �boxing� example above), than the more �verb-like� infinitive. Etymologically, their origins are so close in time as to be negligible:

gerund
1513, from L.L. gerundium, from Old Latin gerundum "to be carried out," gerundive of gerere "to bear, carry." In L., a verbal noun used for all cases of the infinitive but the nominative; applied in Eng. to verbal nouns in -ing.

infinitive
"simple, uninflected form of a verb," 1520, from L.L. infinitivus "unlimited, indefinite," from L. infinitus (see infinite). "Indefinite" because not having definite person or number.

So, here�s another idea or approach...Rather than ask �Which form has more emotion?� let�s ask �Which form is more emotional?� Rather than ask which verbal form (as a noun) is more emotional (as an adjective), what if we ask which verbal form (as a verb) feels more strongly (as an adverb). I�m just trying to get the verbal as close to the agent as possible, because this (the agent) is where the �feeling� resides and from whence the emotion emanates. In essence, I�m trying to render the four emotional verbs copulae in such a way that the verbal becomes the equivalent of the subject complement (rather than the direct object). That, it seems to me, is as close to an emotional conveyance as we can get. (Subject complements are used only with copulative verbs, of which "to be" is the most common, and, unlike object complements, subject complements are not affected by the action of the verb because they describe or explain the subject.)

For example, and because this is our question, what is (an) emotion? If I say it�s a noun, this tells me nothing. But if I say it�s a noun that expresses �feeling,� then it becomes recognizable as �something� we �do,� so much so that, upon closer examination, it�s difficult to discriminate between the transitive and the intransitive: �I felt the warmth of the sea air and I felt well again,� etc. We tend to (can�t help but) feel. �Feel� is ambitransitive, but it is most commonly used as an intransitive copula; as such it conveys the state of being of the subject nearly as completely as the subject complement would for �be:� �I feel happy� ergo �I am happy.� Like, love, hate, and want are so intensely personal that they may as well be intransitive copular verbs. (Isn�t this what smccartney was getting at?)

And there seems to be precedent for this. Consider The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language--ISBN 0-521-43146-8--which presents a comprehensive descriptive grammar of English. Their work �does not use the notion of (does not differentiate) the infinitive, arguing that English uses the same form of the verb, the plain form, in infinitival clauses that it uses in imperative and present-subjunctive clauses.� For our purposes, �the subjunctive mood�is that typically used�to express a wish, emotion, possibility, judgment, (or) opinion�� I�m going to look into their work to see what they�re espousing.

Finally, let�s shift our focus a bit, away from ourselves. How would you define a dog? Dogs are canines? No, we�re inclined to define them by what they �do.� What is essentially dog-like? �Dogs run.� Dogs even �run wild.� What renders �run� a copular verb here? Is it only the absence of an object? Of course not. What they do is part of the essence of what they are. If we say, �Dogs run the farm,� do we mean the same thing, or do we mean that they are in charge? If the latter, �run� is no longer copular and �the farm� becomes the direct object of their (dynamic) control. To make matters worse, what do we mean if we say �Dogs like to run the farm?�

Consider what we ask people whom we meet and want to know better. We ask, �What do you like to do?� rather than �What do you like doing?� I think dogs like to run. I don�t think they like running. In fact, I�ve never thought that dogs like running, even though I�ve seen them playing poker.

--ktb

[sze]

I don't think there is a difference.

[Gusss]

[Phil_K]

I like to swim

I am expressing my preferences in this moment

I like swimming

I am describing how I feel at the time of doing the action. In other words, liking and swimming at the same time.

Definitely more emotion there!

BTW, there is no need for students to memorize lists of verbs that take gerunds or take infinitives. It's all to do with which action comes first (even if the second action doesn't ultimately happen).

INFINITIVES - first verb is first action

I hope to go to university

I hope first, then I go (or don't go) to university

I hesitate to say this

I hesitate first, then I say it

GERUNDS - second verb is first action

I enjoy traveling

I travel. Once I'm doing that, I enjoy it

I regret not calling you

I didn't call you, then I regretted it

Does this work for the example where both can be used? I think so!

I like (before the action) to swim. (I'm not doing it now, so any time in the future that I do it, I'll like it).

"I like swimming", agrees with my theory about gerunds.

[Phil_K]

I stopped to smoke is not the same thing, as this means:

I stopped (in order) to smoke

[johnslat]

Dear Phil_K,

Exactly - the meaning is different. That's the point.

Just as the meaning is different here:

I forgot calling him

I forgot to call him

Very different meaning, too.

Regards,
John

[Phil_K]

Yes, but what I meant is that it doesn't belong in this discussion about verbs followed by gerunds or infinitives. These are complete sentences, but "I stopped to smoke" is just a shortened version.

[johnslat]

Dear Phil_K,

Sorry - I disagree. "I stopped to smoke" is a complete sentence.

But if it'll make you happier, how about this:

I stopped to smoke a cigarette on my way to the market.

Regards,
John