Job Discussion Forums

Greg 09 · Joined: 30 Jan 2009 Posts: 169

Good, thoughtful posts Sinobear and Zero. It seems that the happiness quotient is dictated by reasonable expectations, a positive and mature outlook, and the capability to "make it" anywhere, not just China as some last resort.

Reading these China threads both confirms and opposes my general thinking about moving there. I've seen that alarmism and basic griping hold sway amongst many. Its nice to read substance.

Thanks guys.

igorG · Joined: 10 Aug 2010 Posts: 1473 Location: asia

Today, at 8 AM despite telling him to come at 10, an AC unit company worker knocked at my door to fix my completely new but already broken appliance. A few days ago, I found a local bookshop sold counterfit products mostly and I couldn't choose anything for my kid there. A couple weeks ago, they sprayed some really strong chemical on trees and plants in my residence, when I was walking with my kid there and nobody wanted to tell me what the chemical was. About a month ago, I learnt my clay pot that I had bougth more than a year ago, was a fake and a rather dangerous one too. I love my grandmother, a local as well as the country, but how I could live happily here is the question I have been asking myself every morning I wake up.

What constitutes happiness? To me, the answer is above.

kukiv · Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Posts: 328

welcome back EG

Strangewalk · Joined: 23 Aug 2010 Posts: 1

I've been in China on and off for nearly 8 years. I've done business here and taught English at several schools, in several cities. Also, I've talked with and gotten to know many foreigners from all over the world and have learned what their impressions of China are. From my experience, the majority are okay short term, but are never able to adjust for a longer stay.

Most English teachers in China stay for a year then move on to the Middle-East, Russia or another Asian country. China is a lot different and it takes a special type to want to stay long term. There are genuine negative issues, just like anywhere of course, but here they seem to come at you from directions you're not expecting and are not prepared for, and perhaps cannot tolerate. Additionally, there's just something about the Chinese way that will sometimes grind you down to a ragged frizzle or drive you suicidal, both at the same time.

Owing greatly to the potential for a negative experience is the language barrier. If you only hang out with foreigners or Chinese eager to improve their English, you will only insure your insulation and delay your ability to acclimate.

Lots of guys quickly pair up with a Chinese fem, but from the results I've seen of this, it's not recommended and you're probably only setting yourself up for a fall, either emotional or financial, or both. Stay here for 6 months alone at first, try hard to learn the language, familiarize yourself with the culture, then decide if you want to continue.

You can make it a positive experience with some good fortune and depending on your effort. Stay away from the expat scene, be modest and reach out to the natives.

One American guy I knew worked for 3 months at a private school and was never paid (a common story here). He then went to a well known, large English training center and worked for another 2 months only to see the franchise go bankrupt. Well, it was bad luck, but it happens a lot here.

One thing you should know, China is an insular society and while not being rejected, you will never be fully accepted and will always be on the outside looking in, which is fine for some, not optimal for others.

I have seen people that are happy here long term, but it's certainly not common. If you're only looking for the experience and to learn something about the culture and language, a year should be fine if you're careful and do your research on the area and school you're thinking of.

If you're looking for a long term situation in Asia your best bet is probably Japan, Taiwan and Thailand, in that order.

mat chen · Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 494 Location: xiangtan hunan

You called it Strangewalk. I think another thing that needs to be said is that salaries really vary. Many make the 20,000 rmb a month teaching rich kids preparing to study abroad. Many make 4,000 teaching in Universities and small language schools. It is a reflection of China. A big gap between the rich and poor.

Zero · Joined: 08 Sep 2004 Posts: 1402

I really agree with Strangewalk's post, especially these two sentences:

tin man · Joined: 18 Jun 2010 Posts: 137

i thought I would drop a note to say hello since I started this thread several weeks ago.

I have been on my new job about 5-6 weeks in the USA and have not had the time to keep up with this list. I almost pulled the trigger on teaching but ended up finding a good job in the States at the last minute so I decided to pass on China, at least for now.

I am on the border of Mexico and looking forward to cooler temps. I live like an expat on the border (I am originally a Yankee). The weather is decent most of the year, low cost of living and friendly people.

I am not sure what to make of the entire teaching thing. If I had the money, I would probably retire or teach in Latin America instead.

Regards,

Daphne · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 119

An important fact that has not been stressed in this thread is how the economic maelstrom around the world is affecting the ESL Scene as it relates to the PRC.

The entire Asian ESL job market has become flooded in the last couple of years with native speakers who have at the very least a college degree and could not get a decent job in their own land, and jobs anywhere in this region except China have become a heck of a lot more difficult to land.

Japan and Taiwan are in general better places to work and save cash than the PRC, but now finding full-time teaching jobs is extremely hard even for those on location there, and getting to be darn near impossible for someone out of the country relying on school postings on the web.

Slightly better prospects for Thailand, but due to its attractive weather and lifestyle it seems likely that in a year or two the situation there will also be one where there are dozens of qualified applicants for any and all full-time gigs.

Just look at the numbers for the land considered widely to be the "armpit of Asia" when it comes to teaching--in the last few years the number of E-2 visa holders (nearly all ESL teachers) in S. Korea has gone from just over 6,000 to more than 20,000.

I'm afraid that unless the global economy (and as it relates to our field, especially the ones in the UK and USA) has a significant recovery in coming years (a rather unlikely prospect), China is bound to be the only decent option for lots of teachers. By decent I mean having a work permit, paid housing and so on....in all the other nearby nations mentioned your realistic prospects are likely to become illegal part-time work.

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

middlekingdomlife.com was right. people will pull all kinds of figures out of nowhere to "substantiate" various claims.

Sinobear · Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1269 Location: Purgatory

Daphne does bring up an interesting point.

With so many people looking for easy work, and China not being as stringent as Thailand, Japan, or Korea, the tide of economic refugees are heading this way.

Where I see the biggest problem is not for the glut itself, but for these prospectors themselves. Teaching in China is an experience...a great one. But there has to be something planned for after that. There's no tenure, no long-term benefit (fiscal benefits, that is), no retirement plan, pension or unemployment benefits.
Something that never seems to get mentioned is the tax issue. Sure you pay taxes whilst living and working in the PRC, but you may still be held accountable for further taxation in your home country if you're not declared non-resident (for tax purposes).
How long can one actually work at minimum wage levels (yes, I know the hours are less, but you're still working at minimum wage levels) and expect to better one's position in life?

A house of one's own, a car, a marriage and a family of one's own...how will that all be possible with the wages offered in China?

Now, you can certainly live independently (read: alone and unattached) and comfortably if you're under 25...but what of the future? It certainly doesn't seem to me that China is encouraging and promoting long-term immigration. What of your long-term future?

My sister moved to western Canada when she was 16. That was the haven for young people who wanted to "find themselves". I think China fulfills that need today. What's different is that people are "finding themselves" then forgetting to carry-on and seek establishment (you know, building a productive life).

The only point I'd take umbrage to in Daphne's post is the "...our field..." bit. Our field? How many people, regardless of their place in either China, Korea, Japan or Thailand actually chose ESL teaching as a career rather than 'just something to do'? I came to China to teach design. 12 years down the road I am managing an English program. I certainly wanted to convert from teaching design to a design business in China (my own profession in Canada) but the market here does not support the kind of salary seasoned designers can make. What's worse are the self-professed DJs...they really have no clue as to why young Chinese people go to bars, nightclubs, and Discos (hint: it isn't for the music).

LanGuTou (sorry if I spelled your name wrong) seems to be the only example that I know of who has done it right and done it well...his specialty (education and experience) being something that is needed and unique in China.

Just being able to speak English isn't going to make your dreams come true. You might get treated like a celebrity, but you're not a superstar.

7969 · Joined: 26 Mar 2003 Posts: 5782 Location: Coastal Guangdong

Sinobear · Joined: 24 Aug 2004 Posts: 1269 Location: Purgatory

7969: Just take a gander at these very forums. People with no qualifications, "I have no degree and no experience, where can I work?" People with experience and degrees, "I'm a lawyer but sick of the 9-5."

Middle Kingdom Life is an interesting and certainly an informative site, but it also does not have actual numbers and statistics relating to those who are in China or applying to China. It is not an authority on anything, nor does it purport to be. Relying on "official" statistics doesn't prove anything, either.

Anecdotal evidence is what most of us go on. You have a great life and great experience here, so that's what you tell others. I have a guarded view and aproach to everything, that is what I post. Person C hates everything and everyone, hence their viewpoint is different.

I would ask you, find me a definitive site, with overwhelming proof of numbers, educational standards, definitive rules, regulations and laws.

This site is for ESL "teachers" of any type, colour, creed, religion, and demeanor to freely (within reason) to exchange ideas. It would be pointless if every response to every post was, "Prove it!"

Do Enjoy!

DixieCat · Joined: 24 Aug 2010 Posts: 263

I too feel that there is an influx of talent (no stats or figures). An observational opinion much like the those of the posters who proceeded me. If there really is a "tide of economic refugees" I am pretty certain they will be met with disappointment, especially those not in the educational sector as I have seen an exodus of expats in position formally held by foreigners, currently held by newly hired Chinese replacements.