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Insubordination
Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Posts: 394
Location: Sydney
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 Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Hmm interesting. Most of those verbs force the subjunctive in Spanish. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| YW, JamesD! Glad I could be of help. But the main reason I'm replying is just to add that I (quite by accident) recently came across the term 'suasive verb(s)' (in Chalker & Weiner's Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar), which also produces quite a few interesting results when Googled. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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aske
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Insubordination wrote: |
| Hmm interesting. Most of those verbs force the subjunctive in Spanish. |
They do in English as well, which is one of the reasons prescriptive grammar texts (notably those from the UK) are useless. Those sentences are ordinarily written in the subjunctive mood, but they can't be because the verbs are conjugated for some useless and hermetic 'mandative indicative'. The implication that either form is acceptable is especially ridiculous since they don't even have the same meaning. |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| aske wrote: |
| Insubordination wrote: |
| Hmm interesting. Most of those verbs force the subjunctive in Spanish. |
They do in English as well, which is one of the reasons prescriptive grammar texts (notably those from the UK) are useless. Those sentences are ordinarily written in the subjunctive mood, but they can't be because the verbs are conjugated for some useless and hermetic 'mandative indicative'. The implication that either form is acceptable is especially ridiculous since they don't even have the same meaning. |
All of the modern "UK-produced" grammars (not just Algeo's) that I'm familiar with are resolutely descriptive and empirically-informed, and they are generally almost apologetic about this British 'mandative indicative' i.e. they usually point out (see the need to ~ ) that it will probably strike many (all the non-Brits, and non-Brit-taught learners) as a bit strange and illogical compared to (the American if not worldwide preference for) the subjunctive. I certainly don't recall seeing any "UK" grammar that prescribes the mandative indicative above or to the exclusion of the subjunctive (i.e. that proscribes the subjunctive), but perhaps I've simply been buying the wrong sort of books.   |
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Menino80
Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| If you are subordinating a direct object, the relative pronoun isn't necessary and often omitted in casual spoken English, but it is commonly used in written English. |
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laineylam
Joined: 11 May 2010
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a Londoner, I'd say "Jane suggested Tom bought a car."
Wouldn't ever say "I demanded that he apologized." |
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