Job Discussion Forums

[Rooster_2006]

[nickpellatt]

Training centres / language schools do not require MA for employment, and many focus on adults only. Is that the reason that Universities in other countries require experience? Is it experience teaching adults that they require, or Uni specific experience?? I was under the impression from reading/answering this post, that they required Uni experience, but I can see that experience teaching adults might be what they really want.

If you are specifically looking for experience teaching adults in order to qualify for something at a later date elsewhere, definitely look for a language school/training centre IMO

[sainthood]

While I would tend to agree with much that Nick has written, I still wouldn't write of China uni's completely.

They are a good way to help hone a few things, get things in place, work out a bit of what works and what doesn't, gives you a great feel for students who need some serious work with grammar and pronunciation, all while experiencing a new country and culture.

So, basically, it's a good first step!

Sure, may not give you the best of experiences, but I've never liked the sink or swim approach. Much better to slowly wade out through the shallows.

And, as was said, gives you plenty of spare time and no pressure to do the MA!

[PattyFlipper]

Another endorsement for universities.

I understand that conditions on the ground have changed quite a bit since I left China in 2005, however contracts with Chinese universities certainly shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. It all depends on the individual and what he or she is looking for.

I initially came for one semester and ending up staying for four years at the same university. I enjoyed the complete freedom to design and teach my own courses, absent the pointless meetings, committees, and other 'busy' work, and the vicious internal politics which so often obtains in 'real' jobs in academia. I generally had motivated and enthusiastic students who for the most part (even if I say it myself) enjoyed and benefited from the classes. I had minimal stress or hassles, plenty of free time to pursue my own interests, and was at that time paid as much or more than the average language mill was offering, with few of the attendant disadvantages of working in the for-profit sector (9 academic hours per week for the final year of my contract, plus almost 5 months paid holiday per year).

As to the assertion that teaching in a Chinese university is akin to career death, that has certainly not been my experience. I held the academic rank of Full Professor, which has definitely helped in obtaining positions in other locations outside China. I don't think that a stint at Xiao Mei Mei's Training Academy would have been quite so beneficial in the job-hunting stakes. Quite the reverse, in fact.

[sojourner]

Nick has made some good points, esp regarding the need to be seen as being �cooperative� by one�s FAO.Also, not to be perceived to be a �complainer�, even if something seems to be a �bit contrary� to what is covered in the contract.These points are essential should it ever be an FT�s intention to sign-on for another year at his/her school or uni.

However, I have to take issue with Nick re his comments on working in the China�s uni sector ( I wonder if he has ever worked in a uni � a lot of his posts have been about working in language schools, esp those that are in Yangshou (sp?)).Anyway, Nick mentions that many (most ?) unis may do little to help in the professional development of a young FT.

First of all, Chinese unis are divided into three broad categories.The 1st tier are for the (supposed) cr�me de la cr�me of the country�s high schools � but, I have heard that many of the students in the 1st tier unis are admitted due to their fathers� Party connections. Thus, in such places you�ll probably come across kids who happen to have an over-inflated opinion of their importance in the world. Maybe, in such an environment one might receive some professional guidance from senior staff � or, maybe not ( I have never worked in a 1st tier uni). But, what has been happening in recent years is that many 1st /2nd tier institutions have been forming joint-programmes with US/UK/Can/Aust/NZ. Such arrangements could well mean that the Chinese partners are expected to take some steps to ensure that their teaching standards are roughly equivalent to what one would find in the US, UK, Aust , etc. If so, one would probably expect that there would be constant monitoring of an FT�s weekly teaching plans, teaching style, etc. Thus, such a Chinese uni might well be a place where a young FT could receive some professional support/guidance in his chosen career.

Yes, I am quite familiar with what goes on in many unis in China .(The following thread might interest you : http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=85533 ). Nick refers to the (perceived) general slackness, lack of suitable teaching material, lack of feedback, etc, as evidence of a environment that is far from providing any sense of professional satisfaction, let alone conducive to the professional development of young newbie FT. In my own case, I am currently working in a 2nd tier uni that is not involved in any sort of joint-programme with a foreign tertiary institution. Yet, I feel at home in what Nick would probably describe as a �slack environment� ! I even regard such an environment as being conducive to the development of a sense of �professional satisfaction� on my part. Maybe, not so much as to what is usually described as �professional development�, as I don�t really need that, now, at this stage of my life. I am a professional teacher � not just with respect to my CELTA, but also having completed a secondary teaching diploma course; as well as a couple of Masters degrees, including one in Applied Linguistics. I have also worked as a high school teacher , in NZ, many moons ago. I definitely learned a lot as a high school teacher (eg classroom management skills, lesson planning, etc) , skills that have undoubtedly assisted me as a uni teacher in China. But what I hated the most about high school teaching - apart from the stress that resulted from nitpicking on the part of principals and inspectors ! - was that I was expected to follow a crap curriculum and use material that I found pretty banal. Yes, Nick is quite right in that Chinese unis often have atrocious teaching material, don�t supply proper syllabi, don�t provide feedback/guidance, etc.Yes, all very true � but, that�s the way I like it ! The typical Chinese uni environment � in which I am not hassled in what I do - not only allows me to improvise regarding the provision of suitable teaching material (based on my own books, as well as stuff from the internet); but, more importantly, provides me with the opportunity to devise my own curriculum and to teach in the way that I feel most comfortable with. Yes, to some extent Nick is right: the lack of guidance and supervision that is often found in many Chinese unis means that such places are a potential paradise for slacker-type FTs ! But for me, such an environment is a �teacher�s paradise� ! (PattyFlipper is also of the same view, I�ve just noticed)

For any (non-slacker) FT,working in a typical Chinese uni would, in my opinion, provide such a teacher with experience that could be highly regarded by potential employers in other countries. Working in an environment in which one is provided with little in the way of suitable teaching and a suitable syllabus, let alone professional guidance/performance feedback, could be perceived by some employers as evidence that at least one probably possesses the ability to plan, to take the initiative, to improvise, and so on ! But with respect to someone in the OP�s position, ie a young person contemplating a long-term career in university sectors outside of China, it might be a good idea, whilst in the People�s Republic, to try to find a job in a tertiary institution that happens to be involved in a joint-programme with a foreign university, as there would probably be far more opportunities for such a person to receive professional guidance regarding his/her teaching performance than there would be in a �slack� uni . But, for those of us who have already undergone teacher training in a previous incarnation, or for someone who simply wants to do a good job in helping Chinese students, but who does not expect to make a long-term career commitment to teaching, a �slack� uni situation would be ideal !

Another big advantage in working in the Chinese uni system is that there are opportunities to teach subjects other than the usual Oral English. During my time in China I have taught subjects such as Business English, Western Culture, Intercultural Communication, English-Speaking Societies, Marketing and Management.

Nick suggests that the OP might want to consider working in a language school rather than a uni.Yes, one would probably get more feedback re his/her classroom performance than what would be provided in a �slack� uni.But, how useful would such �feedback� really be for someone who is intent on developing his/her professional skills ? Maybe, in the sort of language school that Nick may have had the good fortune to have been involved with, such feedback might be of considerable value to a young teacher. But in many run-of-the mill �language mills�, I could well imagine that the sort of �feedback� that would be provided would probably be along the lines of �make your lessons more fun�, out of concern that the learners might be considering voting with their feet. Also, in many �language mills�, there may not be much opportunity for a newbie to be innovative in his/her teaching style, choice of teaching material, etc � rather, such a teacher would be expected to follow a rigid syllabus, one that may well be based on outmoded EFL teaching theories.Yet such a teaching environment might still be of some benefit to a newbie in that it would give him/her some confidence in handling a classroom ! Also, the experience of having to teach from a crap syllabus might also provide such a teacher with insights into what are some ineffectual ways to teach EFL � thus, hopefully, leading that person to do some research into the area, or even to undertake CELTA/Trinity training.

Rooster (the OP) is contemplating studying for a Master�s degree in TESL for the purpose of landing uni jobs, or at least working in reputable language schools for adults.When enrolling for such a degree he might also want to enquire about the possibility of including units (ie courses) in adult learning/teaching and curriculum planning, as well as the usual Applied Linguistics/TESL course work into his degree programme

The OP also touched on the subject of Japanese unis. A recent thread to Dave�s on the subject might help to shatter any illusions he might have regarding that country�s tertiary education sector ! http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=85518


Peter


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Sainthood,

So, you are currently teaching at Jiu Jiang University ! Where, exactly, are you located � at what was previously called Jiu Jiang College of Finance and Economics, or at the Teachers College ? My first teaching gig in China took place at the former site, about 8 years ago.

Has FP, from the UK, returned to resume her �position� as the senior FT ? Also, is Miss H. (Cathy) still head of the English Dept ?

Is the �White House� (ie, the admin.block) still standing ? About 5 years ago, long after I had left, I heard somewhere that the students had gone on a riot. During that incident, they are supposed to have burnt down the �White House� (or, at least tried to do so !).

You mentioned that you are on 5 K RMB per month � a big difference from what I was getting all those years ago (around 3200 RMB !).

Is there still only the one KFC outlet in the city ? Also, have Maccas arrived yet ?

Peter

[PattyFlipper]

^ Peter, an excellent post. I completely agree with all the points you made.

[nickpellatt]

Good points guys n gals, which I take on board completely. Ill just remind you of the OP's initial post in this thread though, which partly explains why I have been so vocal in my opinions here. (There was a query about where I have worked/work ... I did post that yesterday, its probably on the page before this).

Anyway ....

He said

[PattyFlipper]

^ I agree about picking your job carefully, but I think this applies anywhere, not just in China. I am not convinced that an informed employer would necessarily hold a Chinese 'Training Centre' in particularly high regard either.

As to 'moving on or up' in TEFL, surely this depends on the direction a person wishes to go? If you intend to work in tertiary institutions, then Chinese language mill experience has very little value indeed - in fact to many if not most employers in higher education it is a very serious impediment - whereas experience at a university, even a Chinese one, would certainly count for something. Similarly, I am sure that a state-sector school would place greater store on experience gained at a university, as opposed to some hole-in-the-wall language school; particularly for a job teaching older students. Obviously, if you wish to remain in the for-profit language school sector or perhaps teach children, the situation is rather different, and experience there will likely enable you to 'move on' fairly easily. Opportunities for advancement are, however, an entirely different matter.

Since leaving China, I have held senior management positions with institutions in two other countries (one government,one private) and I very much doubt whether four years' experience at Ding Dang Dongbei Training Centre would have lent much assistance in obtaining either of them.

[nickpellatt]

[PattyFlipper]

[Rooster_2006]

Thanks guys, especially PattyFlipper and nickpellatt. This is lots of interesting information. I'm not really sure what I'll do yet, but thanks for providing it.

Here's another variable I want to introduce, though: teaching time per week.

From the teaching time per week perspective, uni seems to clearly win out. I would have more than enough time to create good lesson plans, prepare, and reflect on what went wrong with a given lesson. I would also have enough spare time to begin pursuing an MA TESOL or MA in Applied Linguistics.

It's my understanding that most private language schools require 25 - 30 hours a week of teaching (which is roughly twice what a uni requires). That might be too strenuous for me and might affect my quality. Any thoughts on that?

[therock]

Don't want to crush those romantic delusions you have about Japan, but teaching at a university in Japan especially the classroom aspect is pretty much the same as in China.

Teaching at a university is what you make of it, you can turn up and breeze through the class or you can use the experience to become a better teacher.

You mentioned you would like to pursue a MA TESOL while working at a university. You'll have the time and you could put into practice what you learn. After two years, you'll have two years experience plus a Master degree, that certainly would not be considered a waste of time.

[Rooster_2006]

[nickpellatt]

Teaching time per week

Which ever option or job you choose, choose one with low hours if thats what you want. Some Uni jobs will have more hours than others. Some training centre jobs will have more hours than others. My college job in Hainan was actually more hours than my training centre job. Look at each job on its individual merits.

being a uni teacher would be less stressful than teaching kids

Again, it isnt a straight choice - Uni or kids. My favourite class in my last China job had a 37 year old Head of HR, a low level manager from FoxConn, and two engineers in their mid twenties. The average Uni student would be like a child compared to them! Students like that take a leave of absence from work to study, so they can be pretty motivated too.

Uni jobs do win hands down for holidays tho! Cant knock them for that!

Patty Flipper - Your uni job sounds fantastic, but I do think its fair to say to Rooster that the typical Uni job is NOT like that! Ditto training centre jobs too of course. Many do have classes with kids and lots of edutainment, its all about finding the right one!

Also ... (for Patty) the job you ask about was within a college within the UK. Although the college is mainly for UK students studying A levels, they do have an international college and linguistics department for adult overseas students. The intake tends to be from the EU and the ME.

One of my failings was lacking the skill set to pass the interview task, which was to design a lesson plan teaching any aspect of present perfect using adverbial linkers for a mixed international class containing 4 spanish nationals. (Rooster - out of interest, would you be confident with such a task?). I was advised to consider working in a recognised training centre to develop the kind of skills needed to plan and deliver lessons of that nature, and similar lessons with a heavy focus on grammar. They felt that most experience teaching in China, was unlikely to provide the skills set needed for working in that type of environment with demanding adult students who pay high fees and demand results.

This might be an isolated incident with one employer, but I do feel, and can see, that most employment in China doesnt allow a relatively new teacher, fresh out of CELTA, the chance to develop those skills. Of course, many training centres dont offer that chance either, but working in one with some structure, using half decent material gives/GAVE, me a chance to learn more. (although I still have lots more to learn )

Possibly all of this is just waffle though, especially as the previous post suggests Japan and China are pretty similar!