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Dragonlady
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 720
Location: Chillinfernow, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:48 am Post subject: |
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...Oooo, we're getting dangerously close to a capitalist vs. socialist argument here. I don't think I'll go there!  |
Does that mean I win?
And I have to buy everyone in the house a pint now?
DL |
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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know if it'll be useful, but I'll call attention to the fact that no one has talked about what language schools are charging for their services, aside from myself, and perhaps Phil's comment that 500 pesos/hour for corporate work was about tops, in the DF market (I don't know if he meant gross, charged by the language school, or net to the teacher).
What can we learn from looking at those numbers, further?
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When I started, long ago, I knew I wanted to make around $50/hour, and set the price per student/hour accordingly: over time, I began reducing the group size from a max of around 15, down to ten, and raised my hourly rate/student to keep the hourly net up. As the price went up, in more recent years, so did the effective hourly rate (net to the teacher).
I don't know if others would want to try to follow that formula: deciding how much you want to earn is a highly individual matter, it seems to me. |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Language schools charge from $250-$350/hr for on-site classes at the company. $300 is pretty common from what I've seen. M�s IVA, |
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gregd75
Joined: 14 Mar 2007
Posts: 360
Location: Tlaquepaque, Jalisco
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:47 am Post subject: |
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I charge $150 an hour for private classes
$781 a month for group classes, but this includes books etc. Its equivalent to $35 an hour. Maximum 10 students per group. |
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Enchilada Potosina
Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Posts: 344
Location: Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| gregd75 wrote: |
I charge $150 an hour for private classes
$781 a month for group classes, but this includes books etc. Its equivalent to $35 an hour. Maximum 10 students per group. |
Christ, how much do you pay the teacher? |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| Phil's comment that 500 pesos/hour for corporate work was about tops, in the DF market (I don't know if he meant gross, charged by the language school, or net to the teacher). |
'Twasn't I!! |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Phil_K wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Phil's comment that 500 pesos/hour for corporate work was about tops, in the DF market (I don't know if he meant gross, charged by the language school, or net to the teacher). |
'Twasn't I!! |
No, for it was Guy. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| 500 is the highest I have ever seen..and I wouldn't say it is common at all. It was by an independent teacher and I believe it was gross. |
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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, Guy, for adding that.
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| Language schools charge from $250-$350/hr for on-site classes at the company. $300 is pretty common from what I've seen. |
What I notice is that if a teacher had just six students paying 50 pesos each, they'd be equaling that figure, and they'd never have to leave home for it- if those students were drawn from nearby, and 50 pesos may be far less than many people are willing to pay.
D.L. has pointed out that most TEFLers are employed. I would add that some of them may have available hours in which they could run private, group lessons: doing just a little, extra work, at higher rates could double their monthly income, and improve their quality of life, as a result.
Attracting people who find your prices manageable, and your location convenient, would be the aim. Advertising that directly states the location, contents of the courses your offer, and cost, should get the job done. Mentioning that you're a native speaker with X years experience can't hurt. Collecting your hourly rate, in advance, by the month, with no discounts for missed classes (allowances can be made for periods of vacation, etc., as you see fit, of course), only makes sense.
Many places permit free advertising: Walmart's does, in my experience. Some internet advertising is also free. Printing and handing out flyers has worked for me, in the past, as you can target people who may find your location convenient, if they are shopping in that part of town in which you live. Convenience will be an extremely important factor in people's choice to use your services: it can represent savings to them of both time, and money, both of which shape people's choices.
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On another issue mentioned on this thread, it's shocking to me that teacher's would offer to give a lesson for free- to a potential corporate client, or individual student. I'm happy to let them interview me, look over letters of reference from other students/clients, my professional qualifications, etc., but I don't permit a student to sit in on a lesson, for example, to "see if they'd like it," instead requiring they pay for a month of lessons, if they want to "try" it. |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Convenience will be an extremely important factor in people's choice to use your services: it can represent savings to them of both time, and money, both of which shape people's choices. |
Convenient for you or for them? I like the entrepreneurial spirit of what you have to say, but I think that coordinating individuals into groups will be a unstable income. Maybe you could manage to get one steady group for some time (and you'd have to do a pay scale in case students drop out so that you don't lose money), but making a living off such classes wouldn't be easy.
Chances are that going to your house will not be convenient for them. Where could you live to be more central for everyone? Downtown? But a lot of potential students don't live downtown and they probably won't try to get there after work.
I think the real question is, who is your market? There are huge pitfalls to the model you spelled out. I completely agree that conveniency is number one on many people's minds. That's why so many companies simply want classes at their offices.
Your model is really a language school's model. You'll see that a lot of language schools try to do multimedia centers for two reasons. 1) Reduce the number of teachers on payroll. 2) Allow for more flexibility for students. But I think you'll also see that many schools don't have very high attrition rates. I don't think a teacher in his home could live off of the in house classes alone. If you meant to do this just to make something on the side, sure, why not? |
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the peanut gallery
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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Good insight mejms, i agree fully, but unfortunately it has brought us full circle; some of the best ideas for improving the standard of pay in this thread don't appear to be stable or sustainable long term. From what i have read, that has been the main gripe of the "down on their luck" TEFLers on Dave�s.
When the paying public does not value a service they simply wont pay decent money for it. If the paying public does not see the value of speaking English in this economic climate then i fear they never will. For those who do value the service there are myriad options to choose from and as long as language schools have a cheap package available then they independant teacher will be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Until the cheap option is eliminated from public offer there will never be fair wages for teachers.
Phil hit the bullseye with his comment about backpackers. They are not professional but happen to speak English so that is good enough for private language institutions to hire them, at rock bottom rates. If i ran a Spanish school i wouldnt hire a native speaker if, say, he or she was a taxi driver, irrespective of the fact that said taxista was willing to work for very little money. Unprofessional is unprofessional, there is no justification for it if one claims to run an educational institution. If i couldnt pay a fair wage to my workers i would have serious doubts about the structure of my business, and perhaps even if i should be doing what im doing.
It has been suggested that if the money is so easy at language schools then why don't the disgruntled teachers unhappy with their pay simply open a school and join the fat cats, inferrence being money isnt being made quite so easily. But to flip the coin, if its so hard to make a living running a school then why not close it down and join the ranks of the teachers? Nah...nobody is that crazy are they! |
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the peanut gallery
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 264
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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Double post.
Last edited by the peanut gallery on Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Phil_K
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2041
Location: A World of my Own
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| What a fantastic thread this has been! The theories put forward are all food for thought, and as always in serious debate, there are no definite answers and people will make up their own minds. Congratulations to all concerned for their well-considered opinions, particularly The Peanut Gallery, mejms and Tretyakovskii. This is how forums should be! |
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Tretyakovskii
Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 462
Location: Cancun, Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| [Not] stable or sustainable long term |
This, I think, will depend on the individual, and his staying power. At the 3.50 USD figure per student/hour for groups of up to 15 or so, I built up a student body of 110 students, using one local teacher assistant, but tired after a year of so of it and began to raise my rates, and reduce the size of the groups- eventually ending up with a ten person limit. The earlier days of this effort relied on mass advertising to get the numbers up; later, with a smaller target for student numbers of 60, or so, and higher hourly rates to keep the net up (see earlier post, re: progression of charges), this was no longer necessary, and the classes became self-sustaining on word of mouth.
I don't know if this can be done, on this scale, in Mexico. The market is highly developed and perhaps saturated. Still, the appeal of convenience of location, attracting those students who live nearby, or on transportation routes that would not involve long commutes, is still possible.
Part of making it happen is believing it can be done. |
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mejms
Joined: 04 Jan 2010
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| I don't know if this can be done, on this scale, in Mexico. The market is highly developed and perhaps saturated. |
Tret, you've mentioned your past experiences several times now and your uncertainty as to whether it could be done in Mexico. Where did you do all of this before? That might help give some perspective.
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| When the paying public does not value a service they simply wont pay decent money for it. If the paying public does not see the value of speaking English in this economic climate then i fear they never will. For those who do value the service there are myriad options to choose from and as long as language schools have a cheap package available then they independant teacher will be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Until the cheap option is eliminated from public offer there will never be fair wages for teachers. |
Let's compare the need and desire for English-- the English market as a whole-- to something else that is wanted and needed time and time again: exercise. Everyone would like to be in shape. Everyone gives exercise a go at some point in their life. Most people join gyms at some point.
On the one hand people need and want to take care of their health, but on the other hand they aren't really ready to invest all that time and energy. That goes for people in general, across the globe. And by and large Mexico is not a gym culture. It's not a disciplined culture, whether it comes to exercise or education.
That said, there is the need and desire. So how can you appeal to people's interest, capitalize on it, and keep them coming back for more? Colegios can do it because kids need to be in school. Universities can do it because people need a degree. Language schools have a tougher time because they're optional. Just like a gym.
I think Phil's earlier comment about viewing this whole cost issue backwards made a good deal of sense. How much would someone pay to be able to speak English the next day? A dang fortune. Is that possible? No. But what people need to see is results from day one. That's no easy task and we all know why. But the only thing that keeps me going back to the gym is seeing the difference.
I'm still trying to decide if EFL is a worthwhile long-term field to be involved in. I know how certain people view it on this site, for better or worse. The jury's still out for me. |
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