Job Discussion Forums

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

[eha]

'I cared because by that point in my life I'd learned that if you don't protect your standards, your integrity, well, you can use all the excuses you want, but when you let them make you do something you know is wrong, the payback isn't worth it.'

Johnslat: Of course, I agree with you in principle; but how do you deal with the SHEER NASTINESS that you then encounter from--- well, just about everyone around you? Not only students and the misery they can cause--- but management, to whom you're causing headaches, and who 99% of the time prefer to believe the students; and even (this I found the most unkindest cut of all) your colleagues, who are often naively unaware
that it could be their turn tomorrow. If you really stick to your guns, life can become impossible.... and moving on isn't always an option for everybody.

[Never Ceased To Be Amazed]

It wuz fer me! Hallelujah!!!

NCTBA

[johnslat]

Dear eha,

"If you really stick to your guns, life can become impossible.."

No, it can become extremely difficult, but if you don't, then it becomes impossible - depending on how sensitive your conscience is.

And having been in both places, I will always go with extremely difficult.

Regards,
John

[Citizenkane]

[007]

[Cleopatra]

I agree with eha and Citizenkane.

It's all very well to talk about 'principles' but it's difficult to overestimate the sheer hassle and headache factor involved in 'standing up for what you believe in'. None of us think it's right that students' grades can be 'tweaked' to give the 'right' result, or that students who are 'sick' on exam day get a personalised re-sit exam - at their leisure. But the fact is we are being paid by people who do consider this sort of thing quite acceptable. As far as they are concerned, if we refuse to co-operate, we are simply not doing our job.

I think if you're going to survive here without being eaten up with stress, you simply have to accept that things like the above-mentioned are part of the job, and try not to let it bother you. Not always possible, but what's the alternative? Fight with management every time someone presents an 'eggskoos' weeks after the exam she missed and now demands to 'make up'? Refuse to teach the extra classes reuqired to bring a group of failed students 'up to the level'? You can try, but as CK says, do this often enough and you'll find yourself looking for another job - where you'll face the same nonsense all over again. And for what?

Which isn't to say anything goes. We all have our 'red lines'. I, for example, will not give 'bonus' assignments to individual students who are in danger of failing, despite their requests. Other teachers are happy to do so. As CK also said, 'integrity' isn't neccessarily a clear-cut issue.

[Bebsi]

[johnslat]

Dear Citizenkane,

"Incidentally, some might say that in working for an institution sponsored by a government notorious for human rights abuses, you have already compromised your integrity. I say this not to have a dig at you, I'm simply pointing out that the whole issue of integrity may not be as cut and dried as you seem to think."

I can't control what others, including the Saudi government, do (and wouldn't want to.) Along those same lines, I'm not always happy with the way my government spends my tax dollars. Do I, then, refuse to pay taxes? Well, only if I thought that my going to jail would somehow make the world a better place (and there might be some who think it would. )

I don't know if I'd call it "clear cut," but my belief is that my integrity is based only on what I do or don't do.

I suppose an argument could be made that because I pay taxes and because tax dollars are being used by the US military, I'm responsible for
all the actions of those armed forces.

But if that line of reasoning is valid, I wonder how many of us would have ANY integrity (though there'd certainly be enough guilt to go around.)

And, by the way, it's strictly a matter of personal choice. I certainly don't suppose I'm in any way "better" than others who, for various reasons, may behave differently.

My ulterior motive is simple: I like to be able to live with myself - a totally selfish reason.

Regards,
John

[sliim]

So to summarize what I have read:

(1) No NOC, no return unless you clean the slate with a new passport.
(2) One mistake, and you are out.
(3) While employed in KSA, observe the "academic code of conduct."
(4) Take abuse with a smile.

Why, why, why would anyone want to waste their short time on earth to do this for a living?

A couple of years working in the ME and feeback from others doing the same thing made me say...no.

You are all educated and worthy people: why?

[WhatTimeFinish?]

[sheikher]

"KSA is not for me."

I agree. My theory: There's no renumeration anywhere in sight.

[Bebsi]

[cassava]

[johnslat]

Dear cassava,

I wonder - can a "suggestion" be an "accusation?"

Evidence:

1. Personal experience: during my nineteen years in the kingdom, there were at least a half dozen such cases I can recall at the IPA.

2. Reported news:

"A long list of people who had purchased or attempted to purchase fake university diplomas in the United States has spurred the Saudi education authorities to launch an investigation into the issue of Saudis and expatriates who may be working in the Kingdom on counterfeit certificates.

However, Shoura Council member Abdullah Al-Tuwairqi called the reaction to the list �disappointing,� and expressed concern that education officials would have a death-by-committee mentality in addressing the issue.

The Spokesman-Review newspaper in Washington state recently obtained and posted online a list of nearly 10,000 names of people who had spent $7.3 million on purchasing or attempting to purchase fake diplomas from an illegal operation. The US Department of Justice shut down the illegal enterprise and compiled a list of its clients. The list was then leaked to the newspaper, which posted it online at:

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/data/diploma-mill/.

The list contains at least 70 Saudis, or persons who listed their country of residence as Saudi Arabia. For example, one of the names on the list is a Saudi woman who bought degrees in obstetrics and gynecology. The newspaper reported that US federal investigators do not know if the woman is currently working as a medical doctor in the Kingdom.

Deputy Minister of Higher Education Muhammad Al-Ouhali told Al-Watan newspaper that the ministry would investigate people on the list who may be working in Saudi Arabia on fake documents. He said that if the US Department of Justice�s list were accurate then Saudi education officials would take necessary action.

Al-Tuwairqi lambasted newspapers for publishing advertisements from institutes promising college diplomas without background checks. He blames both the government and the media for promoting these illegitimate operations that churn out unqualified degree holders who then �unfairly� compete with people who worked hard for their academic achievements at real universities.

Abdullah Al-Qahtani, head of the Certificates Accreditation Department at the Ministry of Higher Education, told Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper that his department had won an approval from higher authorities to form an investigative committee. The committee would include members from the Ministry of Higher Education, the Interior Ministry, the Ministry of Culture and Information, the Ministry of Commerce and Industry and the Ministry of Labor and would also receive assistance from the King Abdul Aziz City for Science and Technology.

�The Ministry of Higher Education expresses its worries regarding the increasing number of agencies that lure students into nonexisting universities and obtaining unaccredited certificates,� said Al-Qahtani, referring to the issue of local unaccredited institutions and degree mills.

Al-Qahtani also said the Ministry of Higher Education is now consulting the Ministry of Culture and Information to put a stop to the publication of advertisements from unaccredited institutions offering sketchy diplomas. He also called on newspapers and magazines to cooperate with the Ministry of Culture and Information to ensure the accuracy of information provided by universities that want to advertise their services.

According to Al-Watan, there are roughly 18 branches of unauthorized universities, with over 5,000 students in the Kingdom. Last year, 70 staff members at different girls� colleges around the Kingdom were fired for having fake diplomas."

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=113144&d=21&m=8&y=2008

A google search will turn up more articles should you be interested.

Regards,
John