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CECTPA
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 65
Location: an undisclosed bunker
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 Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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The jury is still out on which is worse: the guy who will openly tell you "I don't like black girls" or the one who follows you despite your lack of interest, until you can escape him, telling you way more than you want to know about just how much he likes black girls. I would say the latter; at least the one who's not into black chicks will leave you alone.
As I was saying recently to some other black American women here, there are as many experiences of Turkey as a person of color as there are people of color here. I'm glad to see there are others posting who have had positive experiences.
If you're really feeling alone, especially among "expat" communities of people who don't seem to get what you're going through and try to discount your experience because they don't understand it, I recommend making some Kurdish friends. Seriously. You will find that some of the stories they tell about being "other" feel remarkably familiar. |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| lechatnoir wrote: |
| bulgogiboy wrote: |
Turks are culturally sensitive, about their own culture!  They take themselves, their history, and their 'hero' (begins with an 'A') deadly seriously, and you constantly have to walk on eggshells when it comes to certain subjects. |
Will have to vehemently agree with this. One statement that I keep hearing is "The world doesn't like Turkey" and when asked the reason, the usual confident reply is "Because of the Ottoman Empire". "Americans don't like Turks" but "we like Obama". Politics is a very very touchy subject here and students seem to get extremely riled up at the slightest mention of anything political.
Teacher Journey, thank you for your input and advice. It helps to put things in perspective but doesn't make it any less unpleasant. Not to put up a rant or anything but the whole "dark skin" (well, the student said "dark black skin") has been a very sensitive issue in my own life. I don't really care about the student as I'm already married but it was the attitude that bothered me. It was not a naive answer. There was quite a bit of arrogance and almost disrespect.
Of course, I knew that they thought I was from India and other places, but though meaning well, I saw almost a disdain for other cultures. I've had people tell me how much they make fun of other cultures, especially India. However, Turkey is off limits. I've had Turks tell me that everyone all over the world is a Turk (showing that being a Turk is superior). I do know Turkish and perhaps, understanding can be a downfall.
I really think that you and the other posters are right about a few bad apples really because I hadn't encountered anything like that in Turkey. Most seem super friendly and respectful.
And if anyone has tips on how to work around the Turkish professional atmosphere, I'd gladly appreciated it. I think, as a yabanci, tiptoeing around students and colleagues is a must. Any tips on how to maintain your individual space and also not manage to offend the Turkish colleagues? I am not a gabby sort of individual and prefer to keep cordial relations with many individuals but I do not want to create any drama by not acting according to invisible cultural rules. |
About the "world doesn't like Turkey" myth: This seems to be a national conspiracy theory that permeates throughout the classes of Turkish society. Both my ex-gfs in Turkey were highly educated and pretty liberal, but they still believed the world was plotting the repression and humiliation of their country. Why else would such an amazing nation, founded by a demi-god, arisen from the world's most perfect eveeeeerrr empire (the only empire which never oppressed it's subjects ), with the world's bravest soldiers, still be struggling with so many problems? It's because the world is holding them back! It's common sense!
Everyone is a Turk. Yeah, right. Even a sizeable percentage of the native population don't see themselves as Turks. They're called Kurds!
As another poster has suggested, I would say a good way to get along with your Turkish co-workers would be to show an increased interest in the language. Ask questions, bring in your study books and ask for help with stuff you don't understand. They'll appreciate it. I can't think of one country I've lived in where learning the local language didn't improve relations with my co-workers.
Again, as has already been suggested, offering food will no doubt go down well. Get some baklava to share about, and make clear you know it's Turkish and not Greek! |
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billy orr
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 am Post subject: |
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A number of good posts in this thread, thanks all.
One point that has not come out- it seems to me that the remark made to the OP had a large element of sexism. |
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lechatnoir
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| billy orr wrote: |
A number of good posts in this thread, thanks all.
One point that has not come out- it seems to me that the remark made to the OP had a large element of sexism. |
Another huge issue that I frequently encounter. Males are most definitely superior to women and feminism is a dirty word here. Women making their own decisions and being strong as well as those who choose not to marry are insane, apparently.
A female student: "I can't understand why these women think like this. They're kind of crazy, I think"
(Definitely not exaggerating) |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Women making their own decisions and being strong as well as those who choose not to marry are insane, apparently. |
This is common throughout Asia, to be honest. In Turkey, I found that this attitude applied much more to unmarried women, especially those still living with their parents, than it did to married (or widowed/divorced) women.
A lot of the sexism is tied to the ever present virginity issue (yawn!), which sees parents, especially fathers, petrified that their adult daughters will take part in consensual sexual activity before marriage. This is because once this happens, the fathers' private parts will implode and the universe will catch fire, scorching us all in an enormous inferno of pain and suffering.
It's because of this that they control and monitor their unmarried daughters/sisters as if they were schoolchildren (while the men at the same time try to copulate with anything that has a pulse ).
Unmarried women are seen as strange, because, unlike western countries, being unmarried means they can't have a 'respectable' relationship with a male, and therefore they can't have children. Anyone who doesn't want children in Turkey must have a defect of some kind, as having children is essential to happiness...
And regarding the comment from your female student. I talked to lots of young Turkish women who wanted to do their own thing, travel, have lots of boyfriends, get drunk and swing from the chandeliers, but they couldn't because they were frightened of disappointing their parents. There's immense pressure put on Turkish women, they have to put up with a lot, and always put across the face of 'respectability', whilst the men, both single and married, are constantly searching out chances for fornication of any kind. The women just don't have the options that you do.
Despite all these frustrating issues, I still miss Turkey! I envy you being there, while I suffer the horrible conditions of the UK. Don't be surprised if you bump into me sometime over there!  |
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Englishteach
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| İ agree.. you should have a thick skin when working in this field.. as any other field. The only advice İ can offer about this subject while working in Turkey is to first consider the source of an insensitive comment.. and then ask yourself.. Who are these people? What are these people? and if you know these people, you will probably chuckle and then go about your business. |
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gloomyGumi
Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Get some baklava to share about, and make clear you know it's Turkish and not Greek! |
i.e. tell a big lie. |
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Englishteach
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:04 am Post subject: |
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Muhahaha... yeah.. I made that mistake of saying Greek baklava when I first came there.. wow was that a problem..  and then later I pulled out the movie Midnight Express... oooooppppssss.... 
A colleague of mine made a big mistake of saying to a student.. in an innocent way.. that his girlfriend was beautiful... the student took that as an insult and went crazy. Later he learned it is considered very rude to say such things.. even though it was in the context of talking about beautiful women and my colleague only wanted to make the point that all Turkish women are beautiful. What a mistake. |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Englishteach wrote: |
Muhahaha... yeah.. I made that mistake of saying Greek baklava when I first came there.. wow was that a problem.. and then later I pulled out the movie Midnight Express... oooooppppssss....
A colleague of mine made a big mistake of saying to a student.. in an innocent way.. that his girlfriend was beautiful... the student took that as an insult and went crazy. Later he learned it is considered very rude to say such things.. even though it was in the context of talking about beautiful women and my colleague only wanted to make the point that all Turkish women are beautiful. What a mistake. |
When my ex gf came over here and saw that in UK supermarkets natural yoghurt is labelled 'Greek Yoghurt' it was a source of distress for her. "Bizden caldirmislar", was often heard. This was an educated girl as well.
All food in the mediterranean is Turkish!!!
I would say though, that the movie midnight express was a tasteless piece of anti-Turk propaganda. They are justified in their annoyance at that film, and the damage it did to the image of Turkey. The director later apologised for making that film.
And Turkish women are so gorgeous, it's a pity if you want to date one you need to sneak about like a teenager! |
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lechatnoir
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Englishteach wrote: |
Muhahaha... yeah.. I made that mistake of saying Greek baklava when I first came there.. wow was that a problem.. and then later I pulled out the movie Midnight Express... oooooppppssss....
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You should have also pulled out an Orhan Pamuk book and said that he was your favorite author.
Wow, did you get shunned for a month or so after that? Turks are so super super sensitive. They're way more emotional than foreigners. Be careful, teachers- you never know what ticks off a Turk. They hold grudges for a loooong looong time. Read: eggshells, eggshells.
To be on the safe side, I've learned (quite quickly) to never comment on politics and play the "dumb foreigner", so to speak. Never criticize Turkey or Turkish culture because your students WILL shut down.
Examples: For a conversation class, I picked "rudeness" as a topic and asked about the acts of rudeness that they encounter everyday. Many of the students started to get embarassed and angry after that, stating that "we(Turks) aren't that bad". It was just a conversation topic, for goodness sakes.
They are simply not mature for worldly topics. They're pretty much enclosed in their own country but are quick to stereotype other cultures because apparently, movies show the truth. All African-Americans are gangsters with tape players on their shoulders, all Caucasians are cold and snobby, all Indians are dirty...... seeing a pattern here?
Oh, and apparently, American women are not beautiful. Hello jealousy (another big issue here). If a male student talks about Russian women and their beauty, their female Turkish classmate get super jealous because their classmates are complimenting someone else other than them! I am at a loss here....... |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Never criticize Turkey or Turkish culture because your students WILL shut down. |
It's also illegal to do this. Technically, you could be arrested for "insulting the Turkish nation", according to Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. A lot of journalists have been.
About Turkish men liking Russian women: I found almost every young Turkish male preferred Russian girls to Turkish. However, they only prefer Russian women because Russian society doesn't make it an unofficial crime to have unmarried consensual sex as an adult. Hence the intense interest... |
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lechatnoir
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| bulgogiboy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Never criticize Turkey or Turkish culture because your students WILL shut down. |
It's also illegal to do this. Technically, you could be arrested for "insulting the Turkish nation", according to Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. A lot of journalists have been.
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I had no idea that you couldn't criticize Turkey as a whole. My goodness, does that sound like a heapin' pile of doo doo or what? I knew that you couldn't criticize their leader at all (that's definitely the biggest crime ever here).
Also, when I mention about America's individualism, their reply usually is "WHY?". They cannot fathom what individualism is. You HAVE to be part of the group. I've also noticed that students do not have individual viewpoints. If part of a group, everyone pretty much has the same opinion. It's kind of creepy, actually.
It probably sounds ethnocentric but hey, I am human. I understand their culture but some parts can be very alarming. Hope these posts are helping current and future teachers wanting to work in Turkey. I know this thread has helped me tremendously.
One more thing- I've noticed that many Turkish teachers are somewhat threatened by foreign teachers. I've read similar experiences on ESL review sites. Do not gossip or mention anything that you don't want going around. Gossip is HUGE here. I didn't realize how huge until I saw how one piece of information got around so quick, it made my head spin. Do not trust your secrets or private information with any Turkish teacher. Chances are they will be talking to others about it, no matter how nice and sweet. Though not malicious, Turks are prone to gossip and share other peoples' information- remember, it's a group mentality. |
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billy orr
Joined: 15 Jul 2009
Posts: 229
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| I think there is probably far more diversity between the opinions and lifestyles of people in Turkey than there is between people in US or UK. It is easy to miss much of this diversity because of the way discourse functions in Turkey (see previous discussion on use of 'I' and 'we' in UK and Turkey). |
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bulgogiboy
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 803
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| billy orr wrote: |
| I think there is probably far more diversity between the opinions and lifestyles of people in Turkey than there is between people in US or UK. It is easy to miss much of this diversity because of the way discourse functions in Turkey (see previous discussion on use of 'I' and 'we' in UK and Turkey). |
When it comes to certain issues, like secular boundaries within society, or whether or not Turkey should join the EU, there are definitely profound divisions of opinion amongst Turks.
However, I know what the OP is getting at as well. Discussion on these types of subjects: the Armenian Genocide; Ataturk; and the Ottoman Empire all garnered more or less the same opinions from Turks, of all different kinds of backgrounds and levels of education. It was kind of like there had been a mass system of brainwashing when they were children, like in school perhaps...
The whole Ataturk thing is a personality cult; plain and simple. I think of all the things about which you can see a collective opinion within Turkey, the infallibility of Ataturk and his philosophies is perhaps the most prominent. I didn't meet one person in all my time there who had anything but blinkered praise for the man. Why do you think youtube was banned from Turkey? It was because people were posting videos criticizing/poking fun at their god. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Also, when I mention about America's individualism, their reply usually is "WHY?". They cannot fathom what individualism is. You HAVE to be part of the group. I've also noticed that students do not have individual viewpoints. If part of a group, everyone pretty much has the same opinion. It's kind of creepy, actually.
There has been considerable research on this topic. Turkey is a strongly collectivist society - as are many societies in the East/Middle East. Here is a fairly comprehensible (and interesting) page on the subject (note where Turkey falls in the 'individualistic' list).
http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/individualism/ |
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