Job Discussion Forums

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

I wonder if picking up a language by talking to the locals depends on how closely the language you're learning resembles your native language. If a language is completely different, especially the written form, I don't see how anyone could just pick it up without a underlying basis in grammar and vocabulary. Immersion in a language class would give you that, though. I've certainly noticed the difference between Asian students who've been given that basis and ones that obviously haven't.

English speaking countries are notorious for teaching languages in order to pass exams, and not treating the language as a living entity there for communication. I suppose this is changing in schools and universities. I think relevance and personal interest do play a big part in learning - you need a reason to speak about something - but I'm not sure everyone can learn a language and just needs to find the right circumstances. You're never going to be able to recreate the conditions under which you learned your native language. That doesn't mean I'd give up on someone but if that person had learning difficulties and no real interest, it'd be likely to be uphill all the way for the teacher. Sometimes 'learning difficulties' are self-imposed and can be got past but not always, I think.

Riverboat: just seen your posts. The DVD /basic TV show sounds like a really good idea. I've always noticed, especially when I taught in Europe, how much more 'difficult' IT technicians/ experts seem to be to teach - especially trying to get them to communicate! His difficulties do sound self-imposed and he's being forced to do the classes, more or less. Anyway, good luck with your student!

scot47 · Joined: 10 Jan 2003 Posts: 15343

Not everyone can learn a foreign language. One of the nonsensical developments in foreign language pedagogy is the idea that everyone is capable of FL acquisition.

the_thinker · Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 68

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

I agree that some people just can't.....and I hope it won't be considered hijacking the thread, but I would like to speculate on some of the characteristics of poor/ineffective language learners.

Of the few totally unsuccessful language learners I know

1. they started trying later than childhood

2. they have very low tolerance for ambiguity (I can even recall one student who was driven nuts by the abstract art in the room - consistently trying to make 'sense' of the colours and shapes depicted).

3. they tend to be error-avoidant and

4. PERHAPS have self-esteem issues outside of language learning

I don't know of any literature on this topic specifically, but I'd be interested if anyone has links to such...

the_thinker · Joined: 24 Nov 2009 Posts: 68

smithrn1983 · Joined: 23 Jul 2010 Posts: 320 Location: Moscow

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Yes, I agree. The balance between tolerance of ambiguity and the ability to detect (and predict) patterns are probably the key background predictors of relative success.

The Dutch government has an official test for immigrants entering their Dutch language programmes. The test is entirely based on pattern recognition. Those who score highly on it are placed in fast-track programmes, and those who don't go into slower groups. It seems to work fairly well.

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

smithrn1983:

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

This very interesting article may already be familiar to some posters but I�ll put the link here with some excerpts:
Learning Disabilities and Foreign Language Learning
By: Robin L. Schwarz (1997)
�....Leonore Ganschow of the University of Miami, Ohio, and Richard Sparks of Mt. St. Joseph's College, both college psychologists who had numerous students referred to them because of problems in foreign language classes, began in the 1980's to look more closely at Dinklage's observations. In their research, they formulated a theory which explained the problems and variations in foreign language acquisition. An extension of earlier research on foreign language acquisition in which language is described as having component parts or linguistic codes, (phonological, semantic and syntactic), Ganschow and Sparks' Linguistic Coding Deficit Hypothesis (LCDH), states that difficulties with foreign language acquisition stem from deficiencies in one or more of these linguistic codes in the student's native language system.
.........That these problems may be overt or so subtle as to have been ignored was observed by Dinklage many years ago, and this fact contributes to the difficulty many experts and non-experts have in believing that the problem is in fact based in first language. How can a student be competent, sometimes very competent, in his first language and have difficulties with a new language, difficulties that are supposedly based in the first language? It is hard to accept...

.....In fact, so strongly do Ganschow and Sparks believe this, they now recommend very strongly that such phonological skills be much more heavily stressed when children are learning to read. They feel students' reading and language skills will be much stronger, and future problems with foreign language acquisition will be headed off for many.
The second approach to language instruction which has been effective has been to adapt the foreign language courses according to principles of instruction known to be effective for LD students. This means making such changes as reducing the syllabus to the essential elements, slowing the pace of instruction quite considerably, reducing the vocabulary demand, providing constant review and incorporating as much visual/tactile/kinesthetic (i.e. multisensory) stimulation and support as possible...�

The article goes on to discuss the practical difficulties of meeting the needs of any identified LD students in the language classroom.
http://www.ldonline.org/article/6065

mackayscanland · Joined: 15 Mar 2009 Posts: 39

OP,
Sounds like the balance between objective and subjective info for the visual learner is a little eschewed.
Have you brought him a red apple? One bite out of a macintosh and your hooked. If that doesn't work, have him make one out of clay with a sign on it, stating that it's a red apple. Those types of learner's need a lot more mass with the information. If his eyes are bloodshot and watering after reading(this is a physical manifestation), he need's something more tangible.

Teacher in Rome · Joined: 09 Jul 2003 Posts: 1286

I agree with the tolerance of ambiguity point - in my experience, as soon as students stop fighting the idiosyncracies of English (or any language), they tend to make quicker progress.

I've also found that in 1-1 especially, until you've got a good sense of trust, it's hard to make progress. I can't really define this, but it might be as simple as the student being able to tell you what he's frightened of. Without getting all psychoanalytical, if your student does raise an example of his fear (not necessarily about English) and you deal with it sympathetically, you might create a more personal bond.

The other thing that I'm wondering about is the being forced into a language room setting. I've had difficult students before who were car mechanics. A whizz in the garage, but hopeless (and completely demotivated) in a formal classroom setting. They kind of regressed into naughty children - amazing to see. I wasn't able to take them out of the classroom, nor take an engine into the room, but perhaps changing your setting would help. Could you teach him at his place of work? Perhaps as a sort of work-shadowing exercise? Maybe changing the dynamics a bit would help.

spiral78 · Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash

Hmmm. Bingo! Perhaps....

You sadi the student in question is a techie - has he got some equipment or manuals in English that could be used in lessons?

gaijinalways · Joined: 29 Nov 2005 Posts: 2279

spiral78 posted

artemisia · Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 875 Location: the world

riverboat · Joined: 22 May 2009 Posts: 117 Location: Paris, France

An update: Following one of the suggestions here I decided to forget the productive skills for a while, and just focus on trying to make a bit of progress with comprehension, via a DVD (Headway Elementary, which is in the form of a very very basic "sitcom"). It went about as well as could be expected, ie he didn't understand anything at first except "hello" and (for some reason) "teacher", despite the fact that nearly all of the language was stuff he has spent countless hours on before (What's your name / Pleased to meet you / I am from... / I like... / I don't like...). But we spent a lesson just watching and rewatching and by the end he could watch the episode and understand a lot more than he did at the beginning, which really pleased and motivated him.

As for the suggestions about taking the lessons outside the classroom, bringing in red apples to demonstrate redness etc...they're good ideas, but honestly I feel like I don't have the time to devise and carry out lessons completely based around these sort of teaching methods, which I am completely unfamiliar with. I try to make our lessons as interactive and oral as possible, and use lots of pictures, items in the classroom to demonstrate colours, lots of mime etc because I don't think he's really a paper and pen person. But I think that to try to organise something completely based around trips outside the classroom or particular items like apples or whatever would take me a *lot* of research/planning time in order to make it worthwhile, and I just don't have that time.

I've tried to use his area of expertise as a jumping off point already: we had a lesson in a classroom with a computer, and I tried to get him to talk about / demonstrate how you assemble a computer for use etc, but the problem is a) he didn't know the words for anything like "keyboard" "mouse" "wire" "screen", b) he couldn't remember them even after we went through them and c) he is nowhere near the stage of being able to formulate an actual sentence in English, even when you input some simple phrases like "Connect the x to the x" or "This is a x". I also got some friends to explain to me some of the English words that are used in various programming languages, like "if/then" and tried to use that with him, but he claimed never to have seen those words before, and couldn't grasp their meaning even after we studied them for a bit.

To give you a few more examples of what I'm dealing with:

- He had some recent homework to complete the following two gapfill sentences:

What is x name?
x x is Bill
He is x London

...which is vocabulary we've looked at probably every lesson for infinity. The result was:

What is hits name?
Hits mame is Bill
He is job London

...which makes me think he's definitely dyslexic at least.

And with the DVD, after two hours going over and over the language and watching and rewatching, and him being super focused and really into trying to improve his comprehension, I felt like we had really got somewhere. And yet at the end of the lesson I did a quick vocab review using a few words we had heard repeatedly in the DVD, the idea was he had to tell me the equivalent word in French. But he was completely stumped by probably 5/7 of the words. "House" he thought meant "grande" (French for big), "I smoke" he thought meant "J'aime bien" (I like), "I don't smoke" he suggested "J'adore" (I adore/love). It was kind of demoralising...