|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
|
 Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:28 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Mia Xanthi wrote: |
Back to the original topic...
The OP needs to know that a rumor spread after he did not return that he had been detained by the police in his wife's home country. Nobody ever came out and said it, but there were insinuations that the OP had committed some kind of crime - again, not in KSA, but in his wife's home country. The story was that the OP was trying to enter from an adjacent country, but not through Bahrain. No one ever gave any details, so I dismissed it as rumor, but some may believe it is true. The OP's first act needs to be to clear his name regarding this rumor, as many people were lead to believe it as the truth regarding the OP's failure to return that summer.
The OP seemed to have had no problems with the PMU admin up until the fire in his villa. His status was that of full professor, and I heard him say himself that he earned the highest salary at the university. He appeared to be happy with his job before he left, and most people were very surprised that he did not return.
I saw the PMU "maintenance staff" cleaning out the OP's villa, months after the fire. They were throwing everything out, and making no effort whatsoever to determine what might or might not have been important to the OP. It made me shudder to think of someone's private possessions, especially important papers, being treated this way. If he is able to take legal action against PMU (and I seriously doubt that he will) he should also seek remuneration for the treatment of his belongings, even as smoky and dusty as they were. |
I fully remember those rumors. Something about crimes in Jordon and not being able to get across the border back into the Kingdom. I never really knew him that well, so the rumors washed over me like the other daily palaver that played out on the bus amongst the bored and the angry. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| isabel wrote: |
"Like a friend of mine once said, Saudi is a place. No better, no worse than anywhere else, just another place."
What a load of crap. I can give you a thousand ways in which Saudi Arabia is different and worse than most other places. Firstly, I will guess that your friend is not a woman. Secondly, he just might work for Aramco or one of those other places with country club compounds and has a maid to do all of his shopping and errands for him. To actually live in and be even half aware of the conditions for most people in the dreadful kingdom would disabuse of such relativistic pablum pretty quickly.
Say you choose to ignore the constant indignities to westerners and absolute inhumanity to the browner races and all women in the interest of a good steady paycheck, a nice villa and good holidays and you might be being candid. Say you have very think skin and can tolerate a lot to get the above benefits, and that is believeable too. But to say it is no better or worse than anyplace else is utterly naive and disingenuous or remarkably naive. |
Come on Isabel... you had one experience... with one employer. You do not have the right to speak for every teacher who ever taught in the Kingdom - no less to insult them all. It is not naive nor disingenuous for any number of teachers to be happy enough with their job in Saudi. It is just a fact. Not every employer is PMU... not every experience will match yours.
Desi... is that you? I think I see your fingerprints on the keys. 
Mustn't overgeneralize now...
VS |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| isabel wrote: |
"Like a friend of mine once said, Saudi is a place. No better, no worse than anywhere else, just another place."
What a load of crap. I can give you a thousand ways in which Saudi Arabia is different and worse than most other places. Firstly, I will guess that your friend is not a woman. Secondly, he just might work for Aramco or one of those other places with country club compounds and has a maid to do all of his shopping and errands for him. To actually live in and be even half aware of the conditions for most people in the dreadful kingdom would disabuse of such relativistic pablum pretty quickly.
Say you choose to ignore the constant indignities to westerners and absolute inhumanity to the browner races and all women in the interest of a good steady paycheck, a nice villa and good holidays and you might be being candid. Say you have very think skin and can tolerate a lot to get the above benefits, and that is believeable too. But to say it is no better or worse than anyplace else is utterly naive and disingenuous or remarkably naive. |
Come on Isabel... you had one experience... with one employer. You do not have the right to speak for every teacher who ever taught in the Kingdom - no less to insult them all. It is not naive nor disingenuous for any number of teachers to be happy enough with their job in Saudi. It is just a fact. Not every employer is PMU... not every experience will match yours.
Desi... is that you? I think I see your fingerprints on the keys. :lol:
Mustn't overgeneralize now...
VS |
I simply said that one should be frank about why they are there. To say it is just a place like all others is what I said is naive and disingenuous. I know there are people there who are making a good stable living and have made peace with the compromises involved. That is fine.
As for having had just one job there, well, I do read Dave's (I can, as I am not under the watchful eyes and control of the Kingdom any more) and I have many many friends, both Saudi and otherwise, with whom I am in regular contact. I read the news and am aware of the abuse of housemaids and others. I just read the article about the Saudi man who is being required to deport his wife and the mother of his two children, when one on the way, because she is from Africa and it is a "mixed marriage".
I am offended that my objections to things in the Kingdom are dismissewd as simply being based on my experience at one school. I am a well read and aware person. I know plenty about the Kingdom and my comments are based on that. I have a friend who really misses life in the Green Zone in Iraq. He is quite honest and aware about the situation there, but it suited him. That is fine. I can understand the compromises people make, just not the justifications they give for those compromises if they are not being frank. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear isabel,
I spent nineteen years in the Kingdom; I was not and am not aware of having made any compromises.
Perhaps you could correct this deficiency of mine.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| johnslat wrote: |
Dear isabel,
I spent nineteen years in the Kingdom; I was not and am not aware of having made any compromises.
Perhaps you could correct this deficiency of mine.
Regards,
John |
John, we all make compromises. It is just a fact of life. To get up everyday and not run naked in the sunshine is a compromise. I am sorry if I offended you. It was not intended. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 3:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear isabel,
You really didn't offend me; however, I am curious as to what you consider to be a compromise. Is it that you think working in/for a "fascist state" automatically compromises one's integrity? If so, I'm afraid I don't agree.
As I mentioned on another thread, I can't control what others do, not the Saudi government, not my own government. (There are a fair number of people in the world who consider the USA to be a "terrorist state.")
What I can control is my own behavior, and, in my opinion, only I can compromise my integrity by my own behavior.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| johnslat wrote: |
Dear isabel,
You really didn't offend me; however, I am curious as to what you consider to be a compromise. Is it that you think working in/for a "fascist state" automatically compromises one's integrity? If so, I'm afraid I don't agree.
As I mentioned on another thread, I can;t control what others do, not the Saudi government, not my own government. (There are a fair number of people in the world who consider the USA to be a "terrorist state.)
What I can control is my own behavior, and, in my opinion, only I can compromise my integrity by my own behavior.
Regards,
John |
Point taken. And you don't seem to sugar coat things in the Kingdom. I saw on another thread where you advised women to look elsewhere in the ME rather than the Kingdom for work. I would never question your integrity. As I said before, if you go in with eyes wide open and understand what is going on, you can probably make your peace with the place, which is a place quite unlike any other place. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
johnslat
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 13859
Location: Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Dear isabel,
Thank you - we live in a world where many wicked things can and do happen. While the Kingdom would rank high, in my opinion, on the "wicked scale," it's by no means alone. No state that I'm aware of is free of corruption, malfeasance, and, at least on occasion, downright evil.
What the governments where we work may do is beyond our control. Certainly, we can choose to work in lands that are relatively low on the "wicked scale," but even these have done and do shameful things.
I do not think that what any government where I work does affects my integrity. I suppose that if I did I'd have to start looking for a deserted island somewhere. In fact, I think it's possible that when one is working in/for a wicked state, one may, by example - words and behavior - affect in some small way a change in a few of its citizens for the better.
Some/Many might say that I'm being too idealistic in thinking so, but my own experience leads me to a different conclusion.
Regards,
John |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| We all have different experiences in KSA. Mine have been a mixture, but positive has outweighed negative. I proceed on Final Exit in June, God willing. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mia Xanthi
Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 955
Location: why is my heart still in the Middle East while the rest of me isn't?
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Exit is, as you may well know, often the hardest part of KSA. May your masters be kind and ket you leave with some of those positive feelings intact, scot47. Saudi will be a lesser place without your presence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
isabel,
You wrote some time ago:
| Quote: |
"Like a friend of mine once said, Saudi is a place. No better, no worse than anywhere else, just another place."
What a load of crap. I can give you a thousand ways in which Saudi Arabia is different and worse than most other places. Firstly, I will guess that your friend is not a woman. Secondly, he just might work for Aramco or one of those other places with country club compounds and has a maid to do all of his shopping and errands for him. To actually live in and be even half aware of the conditions for most people in the dreadful kingdom would disabuse of such relativistic pablum pretty quickly.
Say you choose to ignore the constant indignities to westerners and absolute inhumanity to the browner races and all women in the interest of a good steady paycheck, a nice villa and good holidays and you might be being candid. Say you have very think skin and can tolerate a lot to get the above benefits, and that is believeable too. But to say it is no better or worse than anyplace else is utterly naive and disingenuous or remarkably naive.
|
At first, on reading this, I thought what an angry, bitter person this is. Then, I read in a later post where you said you are aware that Saudi is a horrible place, and that you know this for sure, as other people you know also had bad experiences. I bet they were colleagues!
Anyway, when my friend read your post, he realized that in all the twenty plus years he was in Saudi, he just thought he was happy, even when he did work at Aramco. Really, you have made him realize that he was most unhappy; in fact, he was abjectly miserable.
Why did he think he was happy? He had mostly very pleasant students, a laid back existence, a very good tax free salary, long vacations, and yes, a sort of country-club existence. But that is not everything. Being on the dole in Britain in the 70s, he realized, he was much happier. Why? Simply because it wasn't KSA.
I spent a few years in KSA, during most of which time I enjoyed it there. Or, I thought I did. However, if you say I was miserable, then I was. The students I thought were nice, were actually not. I still cannot figure out exactly what was awful about them, but you said they are, so they must be.
Incidentally, my wife has spent a short time in Saudi and liked it very much. Aha! She thought she did. Deluded, of course. And the ones I really feel sorry for are the women I know who are still there and - yes, you've guessed it - thinking they like it. Will you write to them in person and point out the error and naivete of their ways?
Now, many of my former Saudi-liking friends have decided that what with recession and all in Europe, we'd like to work where you went after KSA. Can you tell us more about it?
We have searched diligently for the Nirvana and Utopia forums, but have failed to find them. Can you send us the link? And any info about jobs there. Which there must be, as they are perfect places. At least, better than Saudi.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for giving us the benefit of your superior knowledge and understanding, and showing us all the light. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
isabel
Joined: 07 Mar 2003
Posts: 510
Location: God's green earth
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Please direct me to where I said the students were awful? I really don't believe I said anyone was awful.
I did say that Saudi Arabia is not just a place like any other. But you are right, who am I to say. Maybe Human Rights Watch and other human rights groups have more of a right and are more reliable sources? What about the media, even Saudi, that posts articles about abuses on an almost daily basis?
Most of the people I knew in Saudi Arabia (expats) were there for the money. They had other places they would rather be, but the money kept them there. That is reasonable. But it simply says that they needed the money enough to put up with being there.
Happiness doesn't depend on a place, and those people who find it, well, good on them. Those who can maintain it in the tragic Kingdom are fortunate and wise indeed. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bebsi
Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No, isabel, you didn't specifically say the students were awful, but considering they're from such a dreadful place, how can it be another way?
I mean, if a country is as awful as you say, let's face it, then teaching there must be dreadful too.
Anyway, that's not the main issue. I am curious about something.
Before you went to Saudi, and had the bad experiences you did, you must still have known about the interest that various human rights groups had in the place, and its international record/reputation? [No worse, as it happens, than some other countries that are seen as absolute Nirvana by hordes of tourists] Why did political issues there suddenly only become a major concern for you after you had been there and decided you didn't like it?
| Quote: |
| Say you choose to ignore the constant indignities to westerners and absolute inhumanity to the browner races and all women in the interest of a good steady paycheck, a nice villa and good holidays and you might be being candid. Say you have very think skin and can tolerate a lot to get the above benefits, and that is believeable too. But to say it is no better or worse than anyplace else is utterly naive and disingenuous or remarkably naive. |
Can you explain how 'constant indignities to westerners' squares with 'a good steady paycheck, a nice villa and good holidays'?
Unless of course, you didn't have the latter but other westerners did. Which would explain why they should go to confession, and you to Human Rights Watch. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
