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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
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| - why are people so negative on this forum? |
Well, everybody's experience is different, of course. But I suspect that most of the negativity toward VN comes from older teachers who
a) have lived in VN quite a few years and remember how it used to be better
and/or
b) have lived in a number of different countries and see how living in VN does not compare favorably.
If you're young and VN is the first foreign country you've been to or you've just arrived from teaching in some place cold and dull or the Middle East, then yeah VN may seem adventurous at first.
This may or may not be the case for you. I have no idea how long you've been there or where all you have visited or lived. Anyway, in general, I think these differences in experience may contribute to the differences in opinion. |
Hi Sigmoid,
Sadly I am not that young any more. Nor is Vietnam my first time living and working in a foreign country. It�s actually my seventh and I have also travelled through over thirty more. Needless to say, I have never been to a country that was perfect. Perhaps Vietnam now is not as good (at least for an expat) as what it was �back in the day�, but things change and you either adjust (and make the best of it) or you don�t.
You stated that people�s opinions will vary with their experiences. Perfectly valid point and I have no argument with that. However, I really don�t understand why people continue to do things that make them unhappy. Sure if you have a family here than that complicates things, but no one is forced to either come here or stay. Not that long ago I was fed up living in Hanoi so I spent $55 on an air ticket and moved to Saigon. I like living in Saigon, but if I didn�t I would have tried my luck somewhere else (most likely in another country). Life�s too short.
Indeed, the few �miserable expats� that I have met whist living here I think would be miserable anywhere. They can�t help it - it�s just the way they are. Moreover, in Vietnam, based on my experience, they are a tiny minority of the expat population. I can�t say the same about Dave�s. The �miserable� posters are, in my view, overrepresented on this forum and, I feel, often give potential new teachers a completely distorted view of what living here is actually like. The vast majority of expats (myself included) are happy with their life�s here, but I doubt a potential newbie would gather that by reading this forum.
God knows there are plenty of things to criticise this country about. Animal rights, corruption, traffic, noise pollution, pollution, littering etc. are a disgrace! I also fully understand the usefulness of forums such as these to vent. But, as I have stated before on another thread, the life of a TEFLer in Vietnam is, in my view, a pampered existence. The lifestyle we enjoy for the amount of work we do is extremely favourable. Please understand that I not talking about you Sigmoid, but some of the posts on this forum make me almost cringe. I honestly hope that many Vietnamese don�t read Dave�s. If I was a Vietnamese working seven days a week, 12 hours a day for $500 a year and then read posts by foreigners (who have nothing good to say about my country), who work part time and make about $2000 a month [largely based on their skill in being able to communicate in their native language], I would probably be inclined to view foreign teachers as a bunch of ungrateful, whining cry babies. |
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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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I love Vietnam, I hate Vietnam, I'll never be the same again.
Does that sum it up or what? |
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Jbhughes
Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 254
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:11 am Post subject: |
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[quote=1st Sgt Welsh]
if I was a Vietnamese working seven days a week, 12 hours a day for $500 a year
[/quote]
Are there really people in VN getting paid 30000 for a 12-hour day? :O
[quote=1st Sgt Welsh]
I honestly hope that many Vietnamese don�t read Dave�s.
[/quote]
I hope that the people from this country that belie the others do read this (entire) forum and understand that there are many countries and people from those countries and that although there are differences, these differences can be celebrated, are interesting and often allow all of us to learn more about ourselves and each-other.
I'm not suggesting you disagree with my point, 1st Sgt Welsh, I'm simply making this point because I have 'miserable' tendencies and the aforementioned area is the main cause. I just take things day-by-day, overall this job and country are the right decision for me at the moment.
toiyeuthitmeo made a fun post recently with ways of dealing with VN - I forgot to add one:
-When you meet an older person, call yourself 'con' (no tone, vowel sounds like the 'a' in a strong 'was') and them 'bo' (up tone, vowel sounds like the 'o' in the English 'go') for a man and 'me' (dot tone, vowel sounds like air) for a woman.
-When you meet a younger person, flip this around - 'con' for them, 'bo' for you if you're a male, 'me' for you if you're a female.
-If they try to point out you're using them incorrectly, just say '<insert relevant pronoun for yourself> khong biet tieng viet nhieu' and smile. |
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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Well sure they make low wages here compared to foreigners but that doesnt excuse blatant overpricing.
Part of that whole low local wage numbers scenario can explain why prices are going up all the time. There is no risk in overcharging since they can afford to lose business. Its just as good to overcharge a few customers than give a lot more an average or decent price.
The subway sandwich footlong costs about 1/3 more here than in the states. You have to agree that just doesnt add up. It should be cheaper. But things seem to be targeted at the prototypical rich traveller. The thought seems to be- if foreigners can afford it- then they can pay more.
Prices are always climbing here beyond what the market will bear. One reason might be that the corrective forces aren't there like in other economies. Property owners own outright land already long since paid for at bargain rate and dont really pay tax. They dont need customers, they can just keep asking higher and higher prices. If the shop or business closes, they just raise the rent and wait for someone else to open another biz. |
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just noel
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| If I was a Vietnamese working seven days a week, 12 hours a day for $500 a year |
I've never met any Vietnamese that worked for that little. If anyone did work for that low of a salary/wage, they would not be able to eat.
It's OK if people want to air the complaints. No place is perfect. |
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spycatcher reincarnated
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:52 am Post subject: |
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The Mad Hatter wrote:
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| The thought seems to be- if foreigners can afford it- then they can pay more. |
I would say that if people are perceived as wealthy then they are charged more. Nearly all westerners would be classified as wealthy. Wealthy Vietnamese people are also expected to pay more.
Price discrimination (PD) goes on on a massive scale in the west also, but it is usually more cleverly disguised.
Go in to a coffee shop with coffees ranging from 2-6 dollars that are virtually the same. Wealthy people want the 6 usd cup of coffee. The reason for having the 6 usd coffee on the menu is just because some people are prepared to pay that much, so why not take them for a ride? Admittedly this is their choice. (officially this would be classified as product discrimination rather than price discrimination).
One which isn�t disguised is graduated personal income tax rates, which most people seem to think of as being fair. A classic example of rich people being told to pay more and because most of the people don�t fall in to these higher brackets they seem to regard it as fair.
Reduced fares for old people and students.
More expensive university education for out of staters and foreigners.
The concept of �opportunity cost� seems better understood in Vietnam than it is in the west. IE someone who earns 15 usd an hour is more likely to be prepared to overpay for a product because it is not worth them wasting 20 minutes of their time to walk down the road and buy the product elsewhere and thus save 2 usd. For someone earning 2 usd an hour the 20 minute trip is worth the effort. Traders in Vietnam seem to be aware of this concept and try to use it to their advantage.
Sometimes PD seems fair and sometimes it doesn't and I believe this usually depends on what you are used to and what your personal situation is. To me PD in Vietnam seems quite reasonable over all. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| just noel wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| If I was a Vietnamese working seven days a week, 12 hours a day for $500 a year |
I've never met any Vietnamese that worked for that little. If anyone did work for that low of a salary/wage, they would not be able to eat.
It's OK if people want to air the complaints. No place is perfect. |
Sorry guys, my bad  .I�d read somewhere a while ago that the average income in VN was about $500 per annum. Maybe that was an old source. That seemed low to me, but I figured most Vietnamese lived out in the countryside where there are few employment opportunities and the cost of living is very low. Anyway I am sure there are people in Vietnam who earn that and maybe even less. A quick search on Google (which, apologies again, I should have done before posting) states that the average yearly income is around a thousand dollars. That�s an average so some people are earning less and some much, much more. No matter how you cut it, the wages here for the typical person on the street blow.
Don�t want to sound like a hypocrite so I will state flat out that I would never have considered living and working in Vietnam if all I could earn was �local wages�. Nonetheless, my initial point still stands. We are a privileged group in this country and most people here would kill for the opportunities and lifestyle we take for granted.
Just Noel I have no problem with people complaining per se and, like I said in my earlier post, there are things about this country which get on my nerves as well (like you said, no country is perfect). For example, I am quite content to whine like a mongrel dog on any thread concerning the traffic. However, Vietnam is what it is and it will not change to suit us. Not talking about you Just Noel, but if people don�t like it here � go! Or stay and be miserable � not my problem. Posts stating that the food is terrible, the people are horrible, Vietnam basically sucks etc. I don�t find especially accurate. Guess what, although I wasn't so keen on Hanoi, I like the food, the people and Vietnam.
Don�t get me wrong, teachers who are considering moving to Vietnam should be advised of the potential pitfalls and negatives. Vietnam is not everyone, but no country is. However, I think that this particular forum, in general, often lacks perspective. Like I wrote in my earlier post, most expats I know living here are perfectly happy � we wouldn�t stay here if we weren�t. The extent of negativity on Dave�s, I feel, is not reflective of the mentality of TEFLers in this country in general. In reality, the �haters� are only a tiny minority. But, on this forum at least, they are extremely vocal and I see potential of them giving people considering moving here a completely wrong impression. |
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