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Old Surrender
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 393
Location: The World's Largest Tobacco Factory
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 Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Old Surrender wrote: |
I ran into a Mexican guy in Dalian working for an English mill. Mexican passport and everything.
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Oh my God! You mean there are Mexicans who speak English? Noooooo, it isnt possible. What an ignorant comment to make. |
Dear TeresaLopez,
I am sorry that my observation angered you but it's a harsh reality that Chinese language school laobans and university FAOs prefer to hire someone who has/is the following:
A) white skin
B) a passport from one of the major English-speaking countries (Mexico isn't on the list, so you can imagine my surprise when I met that fellow in Dalian)
C) a hottie (usually for language mills)
D) female (kindergartens, daycares)
Typically, a laoban wants to hire a young, white person with movie star looks to wrangle their ankle-biters. Why? Because that's what the parents want and the laoban knows this. They think they can collect more chairmans with an inexperienced, attractive white person who plays games all day versus a non-white person who knows how to teach English. While universities hire from a more diverse pool of applicants, it's still easier for a white person to get hired. It sucks, but it's the horrible truth.
Also, some Chinese students are skeptical of non-white teachers. ABCs (American-born Chinese) I know are sometimes asked by their students �how long did it take for you to learn English?�
Even if the laoban can look beyond race and sees the non-white person's qualifications for what they are they still have to deal with China's immigration guidelines, which say an English teacher SHOULD be from a major English-speaking country. Some provinces interpret this as the law, others (such as Henan) interpret this as a suggestion. Does the laoban or FAO have enough guanxi to get around it? Perhaps, but nothing in China causes more headaches than a stamp-wielding bureaucrat who is having bad day � even a baijiu-induced hangover.
I didn't intend to belittle Mexicans and I am sorry you interpreted my post that way. I intended to illustrate the one truth of ESL I have encountered in China: Nothing is easy, but anything is possible.
Please look at the context of the thread before accusing someone of making an ignorant statement. There are already plenty of trolls mining Internet forums for their flame-war fix. I don't want to waste bandwidth by being one of those clowns.
Yours in and out of the classroom,
Old Surrender
Last edited by Old Surrender on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wangdaning
Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 3154
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Old Surrender wrote: |
I ran into a Mexican guy in Dalian working for an English mill. Mexican passport and everything.
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Oh my God! You mean there are Mexicans who speak English? Noooooo, it isnt possible. What an ignorant comment to make. |
Yes Teresa, it is surprising at times that Mexican nationals can speak, let alone teach, English. Think about why areas with large illegal populations print materials in Spanish (must be because all Mexican nationals are fluent in English).
To go back to what I said before, the laoban/FAO usually has limited English skills. They cannot really gauge if you can teach English. To push on Teresa's comment, how many Mexican nationals have US passports but can't speak English?
I come from a small town, less than 20,000, yet know of at least 10 people who can't speak English but hold passports.
Nothing ignorant or offensive was said, it is just the truth. It is surprising that someone would be working in the PRC teaching English while holding a Mexican passport. Is holding an Irish passport and teaching Spanish in Vietnam normal? |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| good points wangdaning. |
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TexasHighway
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 779
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Wangdaning wrote:
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| It is surprising that someone would be working in the PRC teaching English while holding a Mexican passport. Is holding an Irish passport and teaching Spanish in Vietnam normal? |
I worked with a Hispanic-American lady who was an excellent teacher and well-loved by her students. However, when those from Latin America or Spain try to market themselves as a native-English speaker just because they are non-Asian, then the ones who are hurt the most are the ones like my former colleague who happen to be of Hispanic heritage. On the other hand, for those whose native language is Spanish, there seems to be an increasing demand at Chinese universities looking for native-Spanish speaking teachers. |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Old Surrender wrote: |
I am sorry that my observation angered you but it's a harsh reality that Chinese language school laobans and university FAOs prefer to hire someone who has/is the following:
A) white skin
B) a passport from one of the major English-speaking countries (Mexico isn't on the list, so you can imagine my surprise when I met that fellow in Dalian)
C) a hottie (usually for language mills)
D) female (kindergartens, daycares)
Typically, a laoban wants to hire a young, white person with movie star looks to wrangle their ankle-biters. Why? Because that's what the parents want and the laoban knows this. They think they can collect more chairmans with an inexperienced, attractive white person who plays games all day versus a non-white person who knows how to teach English. While universities hire from a more diverse pool of applicants, it's still easier for a white person to get hired. It sucks, but it's the horrible truth.
I didn't intend to belittle Mexicans and I am sorry you interpreted my post that way. I intended to illustrate the one truth of ESL I have encountered in China: Nothing is easy, but anything is possible.
Old Surrender |
Your apology is almost as bad as your original post. Though I don�t know the skin color of the Mexican in question, let me assure you that there are plenty of white Mexicans, who speak perfectly good English. It is fairly common for middle class to upper middle class families to have relatives in the US, (since 1/3 of what was formerly Mexican territory was �annexed�by the US), and send their children to the US for High School and/or college, thus producing English speaking Mexicans, some of which (like my blue eyed self) are Mexicans, with a Mexican passport and everything. You have obviously never been to Mexico, if so you would realize that is not as homogenous a culture as US television would have you believe. |
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TeresaLopez
Joined: 18 Apr 2010
Posts: 601
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| wangdaning wrote: |
[
Yes Teresa, it is surprising at times that Mexican nationals can speak, let alone teach, English. Think about why areas with large illegal populations print materials in Spanish (must be because all Mexican nationals are fluent in English).
Nothing ignorant or offensive was said, it is just the truth. It is surprising that someone would be working in the PRC teaching English while holding a Mexican passport. Is holding an Irish passport and teaching Spanish in Vietnam normal? |
You are talking about a whole different population. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have little to no formal education in Spanish, which makes learning another language pretty difficult. Completely aside from the fact that most of them are working 60 or 70 hours a week to send half their pay back to the small town in Mexico that they are from. If you are basing your �knowledge� of Mexico and Mexicans on that sample of the population, then yes, your comments are offensive and ignorant. Mexico is not made up just of nahuatles from the countryside, but also has many sophisticated, college educated, well-travelled people who speak two, three or more languages. And speak them well.
I can�t speak for the Irish passport holder teaching Spanish, but is the US the vast majority of Spanish teachers are American, some of whom actually speak decent Spanish. I think any time a person generalizes about an entire country comments tend to be on the ignorant side, because if the person realized that the whole country was not the same, they wouldn�t be making those comments. Anyway, I guess I will just crawl back over to the Mexico forum now. |
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The Ever-changing Cleric
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 1523
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| Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Old Surrender wrote: |
I am sorry that my observation angered you but it's a harsh reality that Chinese language school laobans and university FAOs prefer to hire someone who has/is the following:
A) white skin
B) a passport from one of the major English-speaking countries (Mexico isn't on the list, so you can imagine my surprise when I met that fellow in Dalian)
C) a hottie (usually for language mills)
D) female (kindergartens, daycares)
Typically, a laoban wants to hire a young, white person with movie star looks to wrangle their ankle-biters. Why? Because that's what the parents want and the laoban knows this. They think they can collect more chairmans with an inexperienced, attractive white person who plays games all day versus a non-white person who knows how to teach English. While universities hire from a more diverse pool of applicants, it's still easier for a white person to get hired. It sucks, but it's the horrible truth.
I didn't intend to belittle Mexicans and I am sorry you interpreted my post that way. I intended to illustrate the one truth of ESL I have encountered in China: Nothing is easy, but anything is possible.
Old Surrender |
Your apology is almost as bad as your original post. |
His apology (which is really just a statement of facts that exist) explains the situation here quite clearly. Nothing you wrote in subsequent posts is going to change that. |
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Old Surrender
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
Posts: 393
Location: The World's Largest Tobacco Factory
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Old Surrender wrote: |
I am sorry that my observation angered you but it's a harsh reality that Chinese language school laobans and university FAOs prefer to hire someone who has/is the following:
A) white skin
B) a passport from one of the major English-speaking countries (Mexico isn't on the list, so you can imagine my surprise when I met that fellow in Dalian)
C) a hottie (usually for language mills)
D) female (kindergartens, daycares)
Typically, a laoban wants to hire a young, white person with movie star looks to wrangle their ankle-biters. Why? Because that's what the parents want and the laoban knows this. They think they can collect more chairmans with an inexperienced, attractive white person who plays games all day versus a non-white person who knows how to teach English. While universities hire from a more diverse pool of applicants, it's still easier for a white person to get hired. It sucks, but it's the horrible truth.
I didn't intend to belittle Mexicans and I am sorry you interpreted my post that way. I intended to illustrate the one truth of ESL I have encountered in China: Nothing is easy, but anything is possible.
Old Surrender |
Your apology is almost as bad as your original post. Though I don�t know the skin color of the Mexican in question, let me assure you that there are plenty of white Mexicans, who speak perfectly good English. It is fairly common for middle class to upper middle class families to have relatives in the US, (since 1/3 of what was formerly Mexican territory was �annexed�by the US), and send their children to the US for High School and/or college, thus producing English speaking Mexicans, some of which (like my blue eyed self) are Mexicans, with a Mexican passport and everything. You have obviously never been to Mexico, if so you would realize that is not as homogenous a culture as US television would have you believe. |
Let me break this down.
1) I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear: Chinese law recommends that English teachers need to be from the major English-speaking countries (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK). I am surprised that the Chinese government OK'd that man's visa because Mexico isn't on that list. The laoban must've burned some guanxi points to get that OK'd. In other words: Mexican passport + Chinese law / Chinese bureaucrat ≠ English teacher, regardless of of the teacher's skills. It's just the way it is. Come to China and check it out yourself.
2) I've been to Mexico several times. I used to live 15 minutes north of the Arizona-Sonora border for two years working in newspapers. I know Mexico is a diverse country. Please do not make the same assumptions of people that you have accused me of doing.
3) You're always welcome in the China forums. We'll happily give you advice and anecdotes about living and working in China if you desire a change of scenery.  |
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Non Sequitur
Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 4724
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:11 am Post subject: |
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Sorry Teresa it is the reality.
It would be a step backwards if Dave's became a source of overly optimistic advice because posters pulled their punches.
Put aside ideas of fairness, consideration, justice, political correctness yada - this is China.
Hey they discriminate AGAINST ABCs - their own ethnic group!
The public colleges (tertiary) and universities are the best bet for anyone outside the norm. Passports are a side issue. Native speaker status is what I've been quizzed on and any problems disappear when I speak on phone to the hirer. |
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sharonariel
Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 54
Location: Changzhou, Jiangsu
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| Old Surrender wrote: |
I ran into a Mexican guy in Dalian working for an English mill. Mexican passport and everything.
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Oh my God! You mean there are Mexicans who speak English? Noooooo, it isnt possible. What an ignorant comment to make. |
Mexicans who speak English. That is a surprise! How many times have I heard that same whiny argument about how the US annexed 1/3 of the Mexican empire. And it's so shocking, because even for the 2/3 that they have left they can't seem to get their act together (hence their determination to infest the US). |
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Isla Guapa
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 1520
Location: Mexico City o sea La Gran Manzana Mexicana
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| sharonariel wrote: |
| How many times have I heard that same whiny argument about how the US annexed 1/3 of the Mexican empire. And it's so shocking, because even for the 2/3 that they have left they can't seem to get their act together (hence their determination to infest the US). |
"Infest" is an unfortunate choice of words. After all, Mexicans are people, not vermin.  |
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AdrianG4
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 160
Location: Harbin, China
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| TeresaLopez wrote: |
| wangdaning wrote: |
[
Yes Teresa, it is surprising at times that Mexican nationals can speak, let alone teach, English. Think about why areas with large illegal populations print materials in Spanish (must be because all Mexican nationals are fluent in English).
Nothing ignorant or offensive was said, it is just the truth. It is surprising that someone would be working in the PRC teaching English while holding a Mexican passport. Is holding an Irish passport and teaching Spanish in Vietnam normal? |
You are talking about a whole different population. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have little to no formal education in Spanish, which makes learning another language pretty difficult. Completely aside from the fact that most of them are working 60 or 70 hours a week to send half their pay back to the small town in Mexico that they are from. If you are basing your �knowledge� of Mexico and Mexicans on that sample of the population, then yes, your comments are offensive and ignorant. Mexico is not made up just of nahuatles from the countryside, but also has many sophisticated, college educated, well-travelled people who speak two, three or more languages. And speak them well.
I can�t speak for the Irish passport holder teaching Spanish, but is the US the vast majority of Spanish teachers are American, some of whom actually speak decent Spanish. I think any time a person generalizes about an entire country comments tend to be on the ignorant side, because if the person realized that the whole country was not the same, they wouldn�t be making those comments. Anyway, I guess I will just crawl back over to the Mexico forum now. |
I think you'd be surprised by how much English Mexicans know in Mexico. Mexico can be a very rich country. If you think you've seen wealth in China working in your language schools, try working at a language school in Mexico. Very wealthy, very educated Mexicans. I can totally see a mexican national teaching English. especially if they're one of TEN percent of the Mexican population that are anglo featured -- white, blue eyes -- etc. than of course they'd take one. |
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dog backwards
Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I think this discussion should be placed in the Mexico forum. |
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mdovell
Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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This conversation reminds me of when I went to an art museum looking at a table from Mexico but was Filipeno designed (both were Spanish colonies)
Colonalization created a weird mix of things. I've met some from Hong Kong that speak better English than native speakers in the USA!
Having said that I think the argument is how people are viewed. I talked to some and the subject of fires in the USA came up and instantly they said "California" as if the whole state catches fire!
I think the oddest peeve though had to be when on my trip we had someone of Fillipeno ancestory and I heard "I can't believe he's American" as if they assume everyone is white. The worst was when few still thought blacks sat on the back of the bus!
When you think about it though if the media there does not show much and the internet can be limiting they might not know as much about how diverse people are. Heck many I know envision China as being as it was in the 1960's and 70's with tens of millions starving and outright poverty..if people don't see otherwise they won't change their mind. |
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mrwslee003
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:53 am Post subject: Learning... |
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Is it great to have Dave's ESL forum: We can all become better informed on our fellow human beings by learning from those who are more knowledgeable than us. And its all free!
Thanks to the patient teachers, the FTs in China and elsewhere. |
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