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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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I think that the best way to see if this is a problem with us, or with the Japanese who refuse to understand what we say, is to do the following:
1. Try to have a conversation with 100 Japanese people in Japanese, face-to-face. See how many freeze up or do other obnoxious behaviors that show they aren't listening (such as saying "ENGLISHEE NO!" or making the X sign with their arms).
2. Call 100 Japanese on the phone and have phone conversations with them. See how many freeze up.
My theory is that the number in #1 will be much higher than the number in #2.
I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to freeze up, look constipated, ignore what I'm saying, or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. They still know that I'm not a native from my accent, but they pay a lot more attention to what I'm saying and less attention to the color of the skin or my odd facial features. |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Rooster_2006 wrote: |
I think that the best way to see if this is a problem with us, or with the Japanese who refuse to understand what we say, is to do the following:
1. Try to have a conversation with 100 Japanese people in Japanese, face-to-face. See how many freeze up or do other obnoxious behaviors that show they aren't listening (such as saying "ENGLISHEE NO!" or making the X sign with their arms).
2. Call 100 Japanese on the phone and have phone conversations with them. See how many freeze up.
My theory is that the number in #1 will be much higher than the number in #2.
I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to freeze up, look constipated, ignore what I'm saying, or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. They still know that I'm not a native from my accent, but they pay a lot more attention to what I'm saying and less attention to the color of the skin or my odd facial features. |
I can't comment on other people's experiences, but I've had harder times being understood over the phone rather than in person while doing business. When I first started my job, I had to call a client to order some fabric. Due to my pronunciation being what it was, they couldn't understand me and eventually transfered me over to their Chinese speaker. I asked my boss about it, and he told me that from time to time, the way I spoke and my word choices were confusing and that even he had a hard time understanding me occasionally. After that incident, I bought a pronunciation book and practiced daily. Now I rarely have such issues.
Some men -- especially older men -- don't understand what's being said unless it's said a specific way with the correct words. Horribly inflexible, but it happens regardless of dialect or foreignness. It's annoying to listen to gaijin rant, rave, and play the race card every time they stumble across problems here in Japan or anywhere else for that matter. I know some of you are full confidence and what have you, but maybe you should just accept the thought that your Japanese (or other foreign language skills) isn't as good as you think it is and roll with it. Solve the issue now, and there'll be fewer issues tomorrow. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I've noticed that Koreans are much less likely to ....look constipated .... or make the X with their arms when talking over the phone. |
Just out of curiosity, how would you know what the person on the other end of the phone is doing?  |
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jcook77
Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 32
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| However, just listen to some Americans speak. The first problem is that they fail to understand that tongue placements for t's, d's, r's, g's, and k's are different in Japanese and f's aren't pronounced the same way. Second, they tend to vocalize certain vowels (desU, shimaSU, shimashIta, bokU, etc) when they shouldn't. Third, they tend to unnecessarily stress random sounds. All in all, it's difficult to understand some Americans when they speak. |
Uh-oh. Is this another baseless indictment of Americans? Or by 'Americans,' did you mean all gaijin? Because there's no doubt that all foreigners make these mistakes ... |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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seklarwia posted
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| I've never had people start telling me that they don't speak English even whilst I'm speaking to them in Japanese. |
Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it.
seklarwia posted[/b
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| I often get approached by people especially in stores and offices when I'm doing my "lost lemon" impression [b]and they always start off by speaking to me slowly in Japanese and as soon as I they realise I can understand, they start prattling off like they are speaking to any other customer and I have to keep telling them to slow down because my Japanese really isn't that good. |
Have to wonder where these stores/offices are. Maybe 50/50 in my case, but more often they tend to try English first (maybe more common in Tokyo). |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, double post!
But, yes, this does seem to happen more often in countries where people assume certain people can't ever learn/use their language. I can't speak for experience in Korea (my Korean is limited to a few basic phrases), but it has certainly been true in China and Taiwan (to some degree) Hong Kong, and Japan. |
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Apsara
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 2142
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
seklarwia posted
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| I've never had people start telling me that they don't speak English even whilst I'm speaking to them in Japanese. |
Sorry, have to ask, how long have you lived here? This has happened to me too many times to count. Of course, it's worse when my students say it.
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Actually I can't say I recall this ever happening to me either, and I've been here 13 years. I arrived after having already learned Japanese for 5 years at high school and 3 years at university, which helped a lot no doubt. I'm pretty sure having spent most of that time in the Kanto area where people are a lot more used to the idea that non-Japanese can actually speak the language has helped also. |
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the4th2001
Joined: 04 Oct 2010
Posts: 130
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:52 am Post subject: |
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| jcook77 wrote: |
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| However, just listen to some Americans speak. The first problem is that they fail to understand that tongue placements for t's, d's, r's, g's, and k's are different in Japanese and f's aren't pronounced the same way. Second, they tend to vocalize certain vowels (desU, shimaSU, shimashIta, bokU, etc) when they shouldn't. Third, they tend to unnecessarily stress random sounds. All in all, it's difficult to understand some Americans when they speak. |
Uh-oh. Is this another baseless indictment of Americans? Or by 'Americans,' did you mean all gaijin? Because there's no doubt that all foreigners make these mistakes ... |
Not baseless and I was using Americans as my main example. Different foreigners have different problems, but not all foreigners mangle Japanese pronunciation like (North) Americans do. Koreans tend to have difficulties pronouncing tsu and chu sounds, but Koreans' Japanese is understandable. Spanish, Italian, and French speakers have their own issues when speaking Japanese, but they are still better than most Americans. Personally, I believe that Spanish speakers' Japanese pronunciation is beautiful, but that's probably just because the sounds are relatively similar.
Sorry if I hit a nerve, but seeing that I'm American with advanced Japanese skills, I feel comfortable saying what I said. Again, go listen to some Americans speak Japanese and then you tell me how baseless I actually am. |
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the4th2001
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