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haller_79
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:03 am Post subject: |
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Indeed, there are more than two countries out there. So why do people stay in one that they so dislike living in?
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If you hate the negativity why do you read this board? If you're truly as happy living and teaching English in Vietnam as you claim then what possible reason do you have to enter the discussion, I cannot think of any good reason, NONE. |
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snollygoster
Joined: 04 Jun 2009
Posts: 478
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: Happy? |
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So if I dont have something negative to say I'm not allowed to enter this discussion?
I can find plenty negative to say, but there is a natural balance somewhere along the way where we decide +v- and decide to stay or go.
A nice balanced discussion is better than one that leans heavily to one side only- surely.  |
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Captain_Fil
Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 604
Location: California - the land of fruits and nuts
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:25 am Post subject: |
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If people aren't happy with Vietnam, they can go to the Philippines. 
The living expenses there are even cheaper! |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| haller_79 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Indeed, there are more than two countries out there. So why do people stay in one that they so dislike living in?
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If you hate the negativity why do you read this board? If you're truly as happy living and teaching English in Vietnam as you claim then what possible reason do you have to enter the discussion, I cannot think of any good reason, NONE. |
Hi haller_79,
I was wondering how long that would take  .I guess you are basically saying if I don�t like this board why don�t I just follow my own advice and leave? I am sure that some people would see that as a fair enough comment, but I disagree. I will try and clarify.
Firstly I would like to thank you for your concern, but I actually like the board. Where did I say I didn't? I think some of the overly negative postings sometimes border on irresponsibility (or for one particular poster - blatant trolling), but that's OK and I will come to that in a moment. I do believe I shall stick around. In Saigon at least, Dave�s really is the only place you can discuss Vietnam EFL issues online. There is an excellent alternative website in Hanoi (which is centred around Hanoian issues), but I don�t live in Hanoi anymore. There are a few other websites which discuss Saigon, but they are very quiet.
Dave�s is an excellent resource. I�ve been an avid reader of it for years prior to becoming a member. I have used the website in the past and I think it�s time for me to give something back. I have had a few disagreements with other people here (guess I am kind of having one now), but I have never criticised them � just what they have said.
It�s interesting that you could not �find reason. NONE� as to why I would "enter the discussion". Once again thank you for the concern, but I'll communicate with whomever I please and, if that confuses you, so be it. In regards to "this" particular discussion, I didn�t �enter the discussion� about �negativity� � I started it. The thread began about wages and has now morphed into something different � as long threads tend to do. I haven�t put a gun to anyone�s head and forced them to reply. I am hardly a crusader on this issue. I mentioned �negativity� once, almost in passing, and since then I have been replying to what other posters have said. This is my sixty seventh post on Dave�s and I have mentioned �negativity� for a total of four posts (including this one) and they all have been on this particular thread. Indeed, if you are not enjoying this discussion, or my posts, I can see no reason (dare I say, NONE ) as to why you should feel the need to read or comment on them.
I know I have been tiresome when it comes to the whole �if you don�t like it � go� bit. It�s not original, nor is it particularly insightful. But I am curious why some posters here discourage others from trying their luck in Vietnam yet mysteriously choose to remain here themselves, often indefinitely.
I think I expressed myself fairly clearly on page 15 as to why I think it�s important to give readers a balanced view on what life as a TEFLer in Vietnam is like. The overly negative posts don't affect my life at all. I live here - I know what the score is. However, people reading this forum are often researching opportunities in Vietnam and they can make potentially life changing decisions based, at least partly, on what they read here. I know this because that�s what I did.
I personally think the whole �negativity� discussion is well overdue. Others may say, (although no one has claimed it yet), that this forum is �balanced� (or even �positive�). If they do that�s fine, but I disagree. I have no problem with differences of opinion � this forum is at its most interesting when posters don�t see eye to eye. Nor do I object to criticisms of Vietnam. I am in no way, shape or form an apologist for this country.
But, like I said previously, the �negativity� demonstrated on this forum, in my view, is often completely out of sync with reality. I also believe, the extent of �negativity� on Dave�s is inconsistent with the feelings of the expat community. That's all well and good, but people sitting two thousand miles away researching the potential of moving here should be made aware of it. I think there is an unconstructive bias here that should be acknowledged, or at least discussed for the benefit of potential newbies. Sure they have to make up their own minds, but a lot of the posts here swing too far one way.
I try to be upbeat and positive about living here (certainly beats the alternative) and for the life of me I don�t see why you should think that this detracts from my potential value as a poster on this thread or any other. I just think it is shame that other people could possibly be misled, and thereby miss out, on the very real benefits that Vietnam offers due to the bitter sentiments expressed by a handful of vocal posters, who should probably have made some major life changes years ago. Anyway haller_79, hope that clears it up for you. |
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BenE
Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 321
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| Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with sgt
Vietnam sounds a lot worse when you read about it on here than it is in reality. If you think living and teaching in Vietnam is tough then maybe come and try the place I'm in. Believe me there are places where things are a lot tougher than there. (Unless everything has changed and collapsed in the last 6 months) |
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Oh My God
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| The Mad Hatter wrote: |
Just disagreeing isnt the same as smearing a whole country- but - People don't welcome criticism here - you know that.
Why should people be thankful for having to justify receiving money that is practically fought tooth and nail for and targeted at so many levels? I went to park in a lot at midday today and was charged 10,000. Why? This sort of thing is an ongoing ever rising cost.
Why is it an easy job? It isn't. By local standards its hard. Teaching English is hard work. We dont have an affordable home to go home to. Schools have no sense of commitment to teachers and will drop them at the slightest inconvenience. There is no retirement here. And there are all sorts of cottage industries set up to provide especially high cost service for our every need. If I had a $ for every time someone here peered into my wallet while I was buying to see how much I have I would be a rich person by now. This is just money envy thats all.
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| Come on you guys. We are all teachers here. But from what I gather of the posts no one is willing to paint a realistic picture. what I see, and who I talk to, down at Santas, and in the alley with the lifers, as well as in district 2 with the well offs whilst hanging out at Snap cafe , is that things now are not anywhere near what they used to be. I'm here nearly ten years. and its been ups and downs. I implore you- stop painting a rosy picture for newbies. Its really crap here now. Dont resort to slights about someone 'not having their finances together' or other digs at one's personnae. Im a lifer- But you have to agree- this meme about"adventure" is straight out of the recruiter playbook. This is serious business now. Vietnam is not at a cheery and shiny point in economic terms. ELT is way way down. thats all. Be realistic and give the kiddies out there a break. tell them the truth! |
1st Sgt Welsh wrote:
| Quote: |
| I know I have been tiresome when it comes to the whole �if you don�t like it � go� bit. It�s not original, nor is it particularly insightful. But I am curious why some posters here discourage others from trying their luck in Vietnam yet mysteriously choose to remain here themselves, often indefinitely. |
I've made the statement "If you're here for the easy money, those days are over."
This is so intensely true now. For you newbies, know that the competition is fierce. There was a time that any old backpacker could waltz in the door and pick up some classes - this made it where the experienced teachers could name their salary, sometimes. And hours were plentiful, often exhaustive!
Myself and others are doing quite well but my other friends and I have been here a few years AND we mostly love it here!
So to Mr. Negativity (you know who you are), I'd have to repeat 1st Sgt Welsh - �if you don�t like it � go� and don't let the door hit you in the arse
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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If postings continue to appear directed at the messenger (directly or indirectly) and not the message, the postings will be deleted and there will be severe sanctions including permanent bans.
My suggestion is for everyone to get back on topic very quickly and refrain from posting anything that is not on topic. As information, the topic of this thread is not about the alleged negativity of this forum, the alleged negativity of particular members or who is trolling and who is not trolling.
For further clarification regarding this matter, members are encouraged to read the Locked Announcement at the top of this forum:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=927862#927862
The thread is now temporarily locked to provide time for all members to review and contemplate the above before next hitting the "Submit" button here.
Once the thread is unlocked, there will be no other warnings and the provisions of this warning will be implemented swiftly when warranted.
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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This thread is now available for comments.
Members choosing to disregard the Mod Team warnings above may assume they will be quickly and permanently banned to include their ISPs.
Please report inappropriate postings to the Mod Team by Post Report mode or PM as soon as they appear. |
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baygioimdi
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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I am in complete and utter shock. I had no idea that there was anything positive about living and teaching in Vietnam. I thought the sky was falling and the sun was not setting in Vietnam.
Oh well, read between the lines and one will understand reality.
Spot on SGT. |
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LettersAthruZ
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 466
Location: North Viet Nam
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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I am in complete and utter shock. I had no idea that there was ANYTHING negative at all about Viet Nam. I thought that one could easily make a ton of money in Vietnam, a bowl Pho on the street cost ten cents and jobs were for the picking, much like low-hanging fruit.....
Oh well, read between the lines and one will understand reality. |
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baygioimdi
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:26 am Post subject: |
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well, jobs are for the picking if you have ambition, qualified and experienced. Yes you can save a ton of money in Vietnam, depends on what a ton means-most of my friends are making between 2000-3000 usd
per month, some are making less-not many and some are making more
but most of them save betwwen 1000-2000 per month, not bad for the EFL industry. |
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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Spycatcher I understand your analogy about price discrimination toward the wealthy in the west in the examples you gave. But certain conditions here prevail which invalidate that comparison.
| Quote: |
| Spycatcher wrote : I would say that if people are perceived as wealthy then they are charged more. Nearly all westerners would be classified as wealthy. Wealthy Vietnamese people are also expected to pay more. |
Because for this to be an accurate analogy we would have to be able to enjoy all bennefits of being wealthy . But to give you one glaring exception, why then is this poster's statement about having to "share a house" true? - which, I think you agree- It is.
| Quote: |
Deadlift wrote:
1. You can get rooms for less than $300. Sharing a house with friends and living a district removed from Q 1 is a good idea. This way you get a lovely house, you can do your own laundry and cooking, and you have added security and company.
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Excuse me, but I find it very apparent that we are not wealthy if conditions are such that even while we make probably 10 times the wage of a middle class earner (if that is 4 mil a month and we make 40 mil ie $2,000- and you can bump it up higher if you want into the 3K and 5 k zone as some posters claim is so easy) then why is it that we must share a house? Dont say it is one's choice because if it were that easy we'd all have our own houses and its beyond teacher's price range, and I think posters would have been advertising having one's own house too.
While in a parallel universe, if we were a Vietnamese making that kind of cash every month we would be able to rent a huge house for ourselves. Or even buy one outright. Coming to Vietnam and being told that one will be among the rich is disingenuous if one is expected to live like in a dorm with a spool for the living room table and one kitchen for three dudes isnt it? I think so!
The answer is because we aren't wealthy here if we cant partake in the benefits and our wages are besieged .
You also wrote about the gini coefficient to suggest that the income disparity was not so great here.
But isnt it true that all economic date provided by Vietnam is unreliable and totally dubious , as evidenced by the fact that there is an above boards economy and a below boards one where wage earners not report nearly what they make. With the system of gifts for favors and lobbying endemic. |
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spycatcher reincarnated
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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Mad Hatter
| Quote: |
Quote:
Vietnam�s gini coefficient is actually quite good (income disparity indicator), but I guess that as Vietnam gets richer this coefficient will increase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient
But isnt it true that all economic date provided by Vietnam is unreliable and totally dubious , as evidenced by the fact that there is an above boards economy and a below boards one where wage earners not report nearly what they make. With the system of gifts for favors and lobbying endemic. |
All economic data provided by all countries is a load of trash. Rich countries manipulate their data and poor countries have terrible data in the first place before they decide whether to manipulate it or not. Yes, Vietnam's data is not very good, but I believe it is relatively unmanipulated. Many other countries in a similar economic position to Vietnam have worse data and I guess it is probably manipulated more, so I believe that the gini co-efficients supplied are probably a reasonable comparison to other countries.
It was interesting that when rice prices went sky high a couple of years ago Vietnam admitted that the CPI went to over 20% (16% of this was for food), but other countries in the region that were also heavily reliant on rice said their CPI's stayed under 10%.
Sorry, couldn't understand your other post. Guess I missed something. |
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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's pretty basic: If we are so wealthy, as you suggested the reason for such high pricing targeted to goods and services we tend to want, when you make the point that its normal because wealthy in all countries have to pay more for things, and we are among the wealthy here. So I make the point that if we are so wealthy why cant we afford a house? And why do we have to room up with other in units which are much higher and smaller than what locals pay? the answer is obvious- we arent rich here. We have enough money coming in each month from teaching to theoretically rent a huge storefront and start our own business also, but when they see us coming the system morphs into a money vacuum with very large maws.
We arent rich here by a longshot. |
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The Mad Hatter
Joined: 16 May 2010
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| And if you believe the economic data is relatively unmanipulated how is it possible to construct anything like a GDP or average income when there is a well known huge unreported income economy with the reported earnings just a tip of the iceberg? |
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