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PG_Tips
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 20
Location: TYO
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 Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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gywnnie86:
I hear what you're saying, and I can only speak from personal experience (so in that regard I have to concede on Mr_Monkey's point, there), but I have a Trinity CertTESOL and am in the middle of a Trinity DipTESOL (I wanted to do the DELTA, for the wider brand recognition only, but it just wasn't possible from Japan). I returned to Tokyo after about a 6 week holiday in London. I was living in Nagoya a year prior to the vacation. I had nothing set up other than a list of schools and agencies that I wanted to target. I really enjoy Business/ESP so that's my focus. In the space of three weeks I've secured freelance work (starting properly from around mid-March) that will total c.�400k a month - with weekends and evenings off. I have two other agencies in tow who offer me work that I can't fit on my plate, and an open-ended offer from a family run school for Sunday work that would've netted me another �100k a month. For the sake of the Dip I said no. I'm not being boastful but am just trying to give the example that better paying, and possibly more interesting work is still out there - if one is resourceful, motivated and able to market oneself in the right way. Timing and strategy are also key, but I can't help thinking it's more a case of too many people crowding around the same watering-holes because they don't know, or are too lazy, to find other places to wet their beaks. I honestly feel the market is saturated not just because of the bad economy, but because there is a hiring pool who think all they need to do is use the likes of Gaijinpot, Ohayosensei, or the JALT page to find work. Nowadays the trick is to save these joints the money in advertising by soliciting them (no, not in that way - pervert!) early doors.
If I had a Phd and strong Japanese language skills, I would be hitting the BOEs myself and negotiating a contract, or approaching companies directly. At the very least networking like crazy around JALT.
Mr_Monkey:
Apologies for getting my wires crossed, and while we agree on some things I still think the notion of accepting 250k, or the possible attraction of 190k a month on the basis of a current exchange rates, is very flimsy. If things looked rosier in 6 months and the rates reverse, the MA holder might be out the door, which pays in to the idea you hire people who you have a better chance of keeping. Also you have to bear in mind the few schools in Fukuoka could become very choosy and offer considerably less if MA holders start grazing out in the country.
And as for the point you made about GEOS. I did get it. I just thought it was essentially a regurgitation of what had already been mentioned.
Funnily enough, I'm doing the DipTESOL and then the MA to get out of Japan. The PGCE route is an interesting one, though. Did you need a specific undergraduate degree to do it?
PS. There is nothing wrong with the Guardian - as long as it is purchased in conjunction with The Sun.
Rooster:
I think, I HOPE, I BELIEVE, the ekaiwa model will die before it ever reaches a point where they have the gaul to advertise for MA holders only with 5 years experience. By dying I mean they will hopefully:
- realise their students want/need the four skills
- offer some exams that have some merit to them
- use materials that don't contain spelling mistakes and stickman drawings
- pay teachers well enough so they want to do the job (doesn't have to be mega bucks, or even close, just enough to eat normally)
- raise standards amongst staff through observation, appraisal, training etc.
I think it will get worse before it gets better, but by the time those changes happen, which MA holder wouldn't want to work there?. And from it all less work will be available - but that can only help to limit the size of hiring pool. Would it be such a bad thing not to have to contend with barely literate morons in backpacks and flip-flops?
The greatest thing will be that the Japanese might become a little more discerning when going about learning a language, and with it choose places that can actually deliver. |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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What an excellent, well written and well argued thread!
Reading what Mr_Monkey and PG_Tips have written I would say that you actually seem to agree on most points; for some reason PG_Tips is looking for an argument where isn't one.
Perhaps on the point of 190,000 yen a month there is a difference of perception. My point of view would be to back Mr_Monkey on this. I think, for somebody looking to come to Japan, it is valid to use exchange rate comparison as a motivation for excepting a low paid job in Japan.
If you look at it from the angle of a recent MA/MEd TESOL graduate of a Western university then �17,000 a year actually looks quite good. Full-time work at many UK English language school starts at below that. Without knowing that 190,000 is historically a terrible wage such a person could very conceivably jump at the opportunity.
Of course, there is something inherently risky about basing your reason to come to Japan on an advantageous exchange rate but that is, nevertheless, what a lot of people do. I did it.
From the point of view of accepting the wage from within Japan then you seem to agree with each other. It would be better to ignore the job.
I think, from now on, it would be a good idea for teachers to start changing their mindset about what makes a good job in Japan. By this I mean full-time work should no longer be the desired goal. This maybe a scary concept but I honestly believe there is more security in working for several companies rather than just one; there is also a chance of considerably better earnings. This way teachers spread their risk, have a more interesting experience of work and are always increasing their contacts and thereby possibilities for further employment.
Looking at the jobs advertised on GaijinPot this modus operandi would not be difficult to achieve; some ALT work during the day, Eikaiwa work evenings and weekends. Good money and an interesting life. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:09 am Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
If you look at it from the angle of a recent MA/MEd TESOL graduate of a Western university then �17,000 a year actually looks quite good. Full-time work at many UK English language school starts at below that. |
But would you really be looking at working at a language school if you'd completed a masters degree in TESOL? Or by 'language school' do you mean the section of a university that trains international students to speak English? |
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slodziak
Joined: 17 Oct 2005
Posts: 143
Location: Tokyo
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| slodziak wrote: |
If you look at it from the angle of a recent MA/MEd TESOL graduate of a Western university then �17,000 a year actually looks quite good. Full-time work at many UK English language school starts at below that. |
But would you really be looking at working at a language school if you'd completed a masters degree in TESOL? Or by 'language school' do you mean the section of a university that trains international students to speak English? |
From experience I can say that a number of MA/MEd students, particularly younger ones, do the course without properly thinking through the career possibilities the qualification can lead to. So, yes, I think a 25 or 26 year old post-grad would consider a job in an eikaiwa type English school. |
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Rooster_2006
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Posts: 984
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
| slodziak wrote: |
If you look at it from the angle of a recent MA/MEd TESOL graduate of a Western university then �17,000 a year actually looks quite good. Full-time work at many UK English language school starts at below that. |
But would you really be looking at working at a language school if you'd completed a masters degree in TESOL? Or by 'language school' do you mean the section of a university that trains international students to speak English? |
From experience I can say that a number of MA/MEd students, particularly younger ones, do the course without properly thinking through the career possibilities the qualification can lead to. So, yes, I think a 25 or 26 year old post-grad would consider a job in an eikaiwa type English school. |
...and not only the young 25- or 26-year-olds...
In Taiwan, I put up an ad on Kaohsiung Living to find my replacement for my 14.5-hour-a-week cram school position teaching kids. 14 people ended up applying.
Two of them had both master's degrees AND 3+ years of experience teaching English. And one of those MA holders was a licensed public school teacher in his home country! No joke!
This was for a position that pays around US$1,000 a month.
I thought "This is ridiculous -- why do these guys want to work for US$1K per month? I simply don't believe this." Therefore, I didn't even offer them interviews, since I figured something very suspicious was going on. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Then, of course, there are developments like this.
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| In return for easing export of goods and services to India, Japan has agreed to liberalise the temporary movement of English language teachers, yoga practitioners, classical music performers and chefs. |
Source.
Opinions?
| PG_Tips wrote: |
| Funnily enough, I'm doing the DipTESOL and then the MA to get out of Japan. The PGCE route is an interesting one, though. Did you need a specific undergraduate degree to do it? |
No - there were people in my class who had never taught English before. For the graduate component of the course, you need a degree, otherwise you'd do a Professional Diploma in Education. If you have the DipTESOL, you only need to take the DTLLS bridging qualification to teach in FE in the UK, not the full PG(C/D)E. The jobs in the adult education providers pay pretty well - �25/hour and up, but it's very competitive and difficult to find full-time work、particularly since the government capped the ESOL strand of the Skills for Life budget in 2007/8.
EAP at universities in the UK is the same - it's very difficult to find permanent jobs, and there is no longer-term increase in wages. Indeed, with the cuts and the likes of INTO and Kaplan contracting the EAP out of direct university control, wages are going down.
Last edited by Mr_Monkey on Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PG_Tips
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 20
Location: TYO
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| slodziak wrote: |
Reading what Mr_Monkey and PG_Tips have written I would say that you actually seem to agree on most points; for some reason PG_Tips is looking for an argument where isn't one. |
And you aren't by saying that? OK, I'll bite. Why, not?
| slodziak wrote: |
Perhaps on the point of 190,000 yen a month there is a difference of perception. My point of view would be to back Mr_Monkey on this. I think, for somebody looking to come to Japan, it is valid to use exchange rate comparison as a motivation for excepting a low paid job in Japan. |
Validity is as much a human construct as perceiving something ill-conceived - I would describe your idea as the latter. Especially when you consider the current global economic climate, precarious position of the Japanese economy and a domestic currency that is too strong. And there is nothing that you, or Mr_Monkey has said, which has convinced me it isn't so, or that doesn't lend to the quagmire some overqualified peeps (on paper possibly but in terms of brains and balls I'm unconvinced) are now finding themselves in here. Let's face it, anyone who actually thinks along those lines pretty much agrees implicitly to allow the full shaft to penetrate you know where and likely has reasons for avoiding anything more taxing.
| slodziak wrote: |
| If you look at it from the angle of a recent MA/MEd TESOL graduate of a Western university then �17,000 a year actually looks quite good. Full-time work at many UK English language school starts at below that. Without knowing that 190,000 is historically a terrible wage such a person could very conceivably jump at the opportunity. |
17k a year is crap for an MA grad, in ANY field. And when I get my MA from a 'western' Uni, that's precisely the angle I will be looking at it from. You can earn that money in countless other jobs that don't even need a degree. Hell, I've encountered non-native English speakers with zero understanding of how to teach EFL, working at schools; earning 250k a month. They are upper intermediate level at best! Also, 17k in Japan is not comparable to a Japanese earning the same. They most likely have NHI, Pension, bi-yearly bonuses, maternity leave, sick pay etc. Foreign teachers get nowt. NADA. Banding around the idea that the attraction is understandable is in my opinion very naive. I realise that may sound argumentative but I can't be bothered in trying to frill it up. A day or so of research not related to reading message boards should put off any balanced human being from the endeavor. TEFLers who allow themselves to enter into a poverty trap the moment they get out of the gate through lack of ingenuity deserve all the cup noodles and happoshu their 10k a month disposable brings them.
| slodziak wrote: |
| Of course, there is something inherently risky about basing your reason to come to Japan on an advantageous exchange rate but that is, nevertheless, what a lot of people do. I did it. |
There's something inherently risky about living on credit cards (a lot of people do), and there's something inherently risky about jumping in front of a train (and a lot of Japanese people do that, too). I would strongly advise against inherently risky activities. Especially when its for 17k. Would you do it now? If the answer is yes, God help you.
| slodziak wrote: |
I think, from now on, it would be a good idea for teachers to start changing their mindset about what makes a good job in Japan. By this I mean full-time work should no longer be the desired goal. This maybe a scary concept but I honestly believe there is more security in working for several companies rather than just one; there is also a chance of considerably better earnings. This way teachers spread their risk, have a more interesting experience of work and are always increasing their contacts and thereby possibilities for further employment. |
It's a lovely theory. But without a full-time job impossible - unless you're willing to marry in to the country or self sponsor, which requires previous residence (I think). There's a small issue of a visa to get around.
| slodziak wrote: |
| Looking at the jobs advertised on GaijinPot this modus operandi would not be difficult to achieve; some ALT work during the day, Eikaiwa work evenings and weekends. Good money and an interesting life. |
M.O is about the right way to put it. And why I wouldn't hire an MA holder for ekaiwa in the first place. The 17k job gives them a full-time visa to sing ABC for 7 hours, then when they get the S.H.I.S stamp they're out the door and freelancing for three years - on the dime of the bucket shop that thought they were locked in (mind you, I wouldn't blame anyone for pulling that move). But even then they might succumb to the 1 year issuance, which would make the idea of jumping ship a no-go because once they've built up enough contracts they'd need to start sweating about a new sponsor. The whole reason the juicy part time stuff pays so well is because it's just the labour and nothing else. The lack of bureaucratic babysitting affords them to pay out an extra few thou on the product. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| PG_Tips wrote: |
| Let's face it, anyone who actually thinks along those lines pretty much agrees implicitly to allow the full shaft to penetrate you know where and likely has reasons for avoiding anything more taxing. |
That's a claim that you're unable to back up. You have repeatedly ignored the points that I've made regarding eikaiwa. You're working from within categories that you have created yourself. Those categories aren't valid - the sector is broader and more varied than you are willing to admit, because it would undermine your (charitably put) argument if you did so. .
As you've revealed, you've got a hustle on and sorted yourself some good, well-paying jobs. It looks, on the surface at least, that you've adopted exactly the model that slodziak describes - you have multiple jobs obtained by contacting teaching organisations and businesses directly. Just how did you get a visa for that?
| Quote: |
| 17k a year is crap for an MA grad, in ANY field. And when I get my MA from a 'western' Uni, that's precisely the angle I will be looking at it from. You can earn that money in countless other jobs that don't even need a degree. |
I don't disagree that �17,000 is crap for an MA grad. The question is, unless you're prepared to go to the Middle East and suck on the petrodollar teat, where do you realistically expect a DipTESOL or an MA TESOL to land you anything more - including career progression and an expectation of increased salary over time?
Outside of the university sector, or sucking petrocrat cock in the desert, pay in TEFL is crap. Seriously; it's crap. There are no two ways about it. Teachers are rarely paid in a manner commensurate to their skills or training. In Japan specifically, it's crap and it's getting worse. This is why, unless you can land yourself a full-time university position, which is becoming increasingly difficult in Japan, freelancing - often in a variety of contexts - is the best way to maximise wages. If that includes eikaiwa work, so be it. As I've said, they aren't all the same, and I will work with organisations that allow me to teach a broad curriculum based on what the students need and want.
In the UK TESOL sector (I'm limiting my examples to my direct experience: the UK and Japan, although everything I've seen and heard suggests that it's the same everywhere to a greater or lesser extent) the wages are even more of a joke - an experienced DELTA/DipTESOL holder can expect to earn �15 -20/hour, which compares, rather unfavourably, to the wages a freelancer in Japan with minimal-to-no qualifications might expect to earn in the larger cities. No included private health plan, no transportation allowances, by and large no control over curriculum...
At best, without being directly employed by a UK university as a lecturer on the university payscale, you're looking at �25,000 a year maximum. It should be repeated that the universities do not see EAP/language teaching as a serious revenue stream and are farming the jobs out to agencies of the likes you both rely on, or at least use, and resent.
If your interest is financial, then EFL teachers are - and have been for some time - getting shafted. Hard. Everywhere. It's not going to improve any time soon.
If your interests are pedagogical, then you're looking at a wicked problem - the intersection of the financial models that underpin education in Japan - both public and private - and the influence of Japanese culture on the expectations and attitudes that inform the ideas the Japanese staff and the students hold about what constitutes "good practice". Unfortunately, directly challenging their views rarely leads to them seeing it your way and changing their practices in line with the ideas presented.
There seem to be at least five other premises in your posts that aren't always explicit. From my reading of your posts, they are:
- Japanese companies in the EFL sector aren't professional and don't really care about learning.
- Japanese companies in the EFL sector take advantage of teachers
- Teachers in Japan aren't paid enough.
- Teachers - qualified and experienced ones - who teach eikaiwa in any context (part-time with the serious schools whose existence and practices you still won't really acknowledge, for example) are somehow making life more difficult for everyone else.
- People with higher-level qualifications (such as a Dip or MA) shouldn't do the kind of jobs you frown upon.
I may be wrong, but I don't believe I am here, so I'll respond to them:
- This is a blanket statement. You've denied you've made it, but I'm really not convinced - your entire attitude to this thread seems predicated on it. Besides, it's your job to worry about teaching and learning, not the bean counter's, isn't it?
- Yes, they do. I don't think I've worked for any company that didn't try to squeeze their assets as much as they could. Obviously, though, people have different ideas about what level of squeezing is tolerable and what is egregious.
- Again, this is relative. Yes, there are limits, which depend on personal circumstance. However, EFL teachers pretty much everywhere are rarely paid what they should be, so I feel that you're pissing into the wind. Honestly.
You either accept that, or stop TEFLing.
Even 190,000円/month is livable out in the countryside. Rural and small-urban Japan is not really that expensive. I know: I live there.
- We are everyone else. If I can get a 5,000円/hour part-time job in Fukuoka-ken, I'm damn sure I'd rather I did it than some chump who doesn't know how to teach. That's good money out here, and part of the reason that wages are going down is that there are too many unqualified, unprepared and inexperienced teachers of English in Japan. If I get the job, perhaps that's one fewer noob to worry about dragging my wages down by accepting McDonald's rates for a McDonald's product. It would be lovely to be able to charge 10,000円/hour as used to be possible during the 80s, but it's just not going to happen. I will take the highest paid work I can find, even if that means eikaiwa. Besides, I rather enjoy it.
A basic part of the problem is how many Japanese conceive what a teacher is and what a teacher does - 先生 is quite a literal term. Even my hairdresser is called so by her assistant (who has actually cut just as much hair as she has, but has been doing it for less time). The "you know English so you can teach English" attitude is pervasive. We already agree that it doesn't work, and we both hope that it disappears. I think it will, but it hasn't yet and it leads to the lamentable (from our perspective) practice of employing people who aren't fit for the job. This is the ultimate problem with EFL wages in Japan - clueless white native speakers of English aren't exactly in short supply. It would be nice if the practice of employing them stopped today, but it's not going to.
- I, and I'm sure many others, will do what is necessary to put food on the table, save for the future and have the occasional cup ramen.
| Quote: |
| 17k in Japan is not comparable to a Japanese earning the same. They most likely have NHI, Pension, bi-yearly bonuses, maternity leave, sick pay etc. |
I'm not so sure this is true - there is a veritable army of Japanese part-time workers who enjoy none of those benefits. My wife - at the time a full-time employee managing a fashion store in Fukuoka - earned 60,000円month less than I did at the time (bog standard 25k eikaiwa wage). When she became pregnant, she phoned her manager in Tokyo. He phoned back three days later to give her the dates she would leave the company. No suggestion of maternity leave, no suggestion that she could work for another 6 months. Nowt. NADA. I was absolutely livid when I learned what had happened.
| Quote: |
| Banding around the idea that the attraction is understandable is in my opinion very naive. I realise that may sound argumentative but I can't be bothered in trying to frill it up. |
Conversely, I think you're being very na�ve in your expectations of your earnings and the professional environment you will find yourself in outside Japan. Seriously. If the issues under discussion here bother you in Japan, they very probably won't go away when you leave.
| Quote: |
| A day or so of research not related to reading message boards should put off any balanced human being from the endeavor. TEFLers who allow themselves to enter into a poverty trap the moment they get out of the gate through lack of ingenuity deserve all the cup noodles and happoshu their 10k a month disposable brings them. |
TEFL is a poverty trap in and of itself for a great many.
| Quote: |
| There's something inherently risky about living on credit cards (a lot of people do), and there's something inherently risky about jumping in front of a train (and a lot of Japanese people do that, too). I would strongly advise against inherently risky activities. Especially when its for 17k. Would you do it now? If the answer is yes, God help you. |
I think part of the problem you have with TEFL in Japan turns on your identity as a professional English teacher. Might I suggest that we are in a minority along with most, if not all of the regular posters on these boards? In my experience here, probably 90% of those employed as teachers - regardless of ability - leave after their first year is up. 95% leave after their second. Given that most are young graduates with no teacher training or experience, this is hardly surprising. I'm sure you've already made the connection, but this will contribute to the depressed wages and poor working conditions as long as the Japanese and world economies remain stagnant, the Japanese belief about what constitutes 'teacher' remains the same, and there is a constant stream of young graduates curious about Japan to ensure that supply outstrips demand.
Finally, I'd like to respond to this:
| Quote: |
| ... the quagmire some overqualified peeps (on paper possibly but in terms of brains and balls I'm unconvinced) are now finding themselves in here. Let's face it, anyone who actually thinks along those lines pretty much agrees implicitly to allow the full shaft to penetrate you know where and likely has reasons for avoiding anything more taxing. |
This is the single point where all the arguing you've done shows itself to be little more than a fig leaf for a major attitude problem.
You're the only teacher with the "brains and balls" to "escape" the trap of eikaiwa, and strike out on your own into the world of business English and direct hires. Such arrogance!
I can't put this any other way:
*beep* you, pal. |
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maastricht
Joined: 11 Feb 2011
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
- Japanese companies in the EFL sector aren't professional and don't really care about learning.
- Japanese companies in the EFL sector take advantage of teachers
- Teachers in Japan aren't paid enough.
- Teachers - qualified and experienced ones - who teach eikaiwa in any context (part-time with the serious schools whose existence and practices you still won't really acknowledge, for example) are somehow making life more difficult for everyone else.
- People with higher-level qualifications (such as a Dip or MA) shouldn't do the kind of jobs you frown upon.
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1. Rich people like money.
2. Rich people take advantage of poor people.
3. The poor suffer.
4. Do not cross the picket line.
5. This means you. The guy in the suit. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks, comrade. |
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bluesman66
Joined: 27 Feb 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
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| Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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[quote=" I imagine that singing ABC when you have a Ph.D. is quite demoralising.[/quote]
Good lord. talk about an understatement. |
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Shimokitazawa
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 458
Location: Saigon, Vietnam
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| bluesman66 wrote: |
| " I imagine that singing ABC when you have a Ph.D. is quite demoralising. |
Good lord. talk about an understatement. |
Even for teaching EFL at the university level, a Ph.D is not required. A good CELTA / Trinity Cert. or Diploma would be even more appropriate for the kind of work university EFL instructors do. |
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Mr_Monkey
Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 661
Location: Kyuuuuuushuuuuuuu
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| Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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I'd suggest a diploma, but that's my opinion - at the very least a teacher holding a diploma has a nice piece of paper indicating professional commitment.
I must admit that I find the Japanese universities' on paper requirements somewhat confusing - does having three published papers really indicate competence in the classroom? As PG_Tips pointed out, any teaching qualification without a practicum is not a guarantee of competence in the classroom. While I think the strong interpretation of this position is untenable, it is a valid position. If universities pay the best (not saying that they do, though the y do pay very well) then surely they should expect the best...
I suspect that it's partly about raising the academic profile of the school and filtering out applicants. This does not necessarily raise the attainment of the learners though. |
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PG_Tips
Joined: 02 Mar 2011
Posts: 20
Location: TYO
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| That's a claim that you're unable to back up. You have repeatedly ignored the points that I've made regarding eikaiwa. |
I haven't ignored them at all. I just don't think they are valid ones. You've ignored my points regarding currency fluctuations. I'm not really surprised, though. There are exceptions to the rule, yes, but my point is they are in no way as common as you would have people believe. Maybe it's different living in the middle of nowhere, but in Tokyo I'm confident my observations hold true. And anyway, I've addressed them as I've seen fit. If you don't like it, jog on, or respond (and you know it's the latter), neither is of great concern. Simple.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| You're working from within categories that you have created yourself. Those categories aren't valid - the sector is broader and more varied than you are willing to admit, because it would undermine your (charitably put) argument if you did so.. |
Says you. And I've already told you I don't really take your word as gospel, even though it is painfully obvious you want me to. Charitable? Yes, so charitable you respond with reams and reams. The same 'charity' that led you to walk away from IT and Finance to teach English, but only if there's enough money in it for you.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| As you've revealed, you've got a hustle on and sorted yourself some good, well-paying jobs. It looks, on the surface at least, that you've adopted exactly the model that slodziak describes - you have multiple jobs obtained by contacting teaching organisations and businesses directly. Just how did you get a visa for that? |
"Revealed"? Are you sniffing glue?
It's not hustling at all. It's about being well prepared and not acting like a sheep that wants pasture without grazing. The model I have chosen can only be adopted if you don't require sponsorship. I don't - which is why I know it is a model that works only if you don't require sponsorship.
Again, for all the supercilious posturing you display, you really seem ill at ease with a very basic idea I've thrown out there. Slodziak's model is not feasible for many who rely on their employers to keep them in the country - unless you marry specifically to do so. Somehow I don't think even you would be desperate enough to prove me wrong. But we'd have to ask your wife to find out, and I for one don't care enough either way.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I don't disagree that �17,000 is crap for an MA grad. The question is, unless you're prepared to go to the Middle East and suck on the petrodollar teat, where do you realistically expect a DipTESOL or an MA TESOL to land you anything more - including career progression and an expectation of increased salary over time? |
Yeah. I do. And yes, "sucking the petrodollar teat" (how very Guardianesque of you) is something that I would consider. Korea pays OK, so does Taiwan. China might do, too, eventually. Malaysia seems quite nice. There ARE better paid positions in ELT for people even without an MA, it takes luck and a bit of ingenuity, though. And not even that much! And, yes, they are available IN Japan, although Japan is not the only option. It may be the only option for YOU but it isn't for others. Again, you seem to have all the answers based on your own opinion, and take extreme exception when someone has the 'arrogance' to go against it. You sounding off that people should be happy enough with 17k - while you have your own limit - is quite laughable...
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Outside of the university sector, or sucking petrocrat cock in the desert, pay in TEFL is crap. |
"Sucking petrocrat cock"? Jesus, you really are miffed. I'm surprised you would have a dig at Guardian journalists, you have a lot in common. I don't think sucking cock has got anything to do with it, but seeing as your 'charitable' entertainment of my argument has led to you losing your rag like a school girl, allow me to state catagorically that I would be more than happy to take a petrocrat's dough. It would no doubt be more rewarding than the yen reaped from acting the sycophant to a handful of nice ekaiwa owners in bum-crack Kyuushu.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Seriously; it's crap. There are no two ways about it. Teachers are rarely paid in a manner commensurate to their skills or training. In Japan specifically, it's crap and it's getting worse. This is why, unless you can land yourself a full-time university position, which is becoming increasingly difficult in Japan, freelancing - often in a variety of contexts - is the best way to maximise wages. If that includes eikaiwa work, so be it. As I've said, they aren't all the same, and I will work with organisations that allow me to teach a broad curriculum based on what the students need and want. |
You�re pointing things out that I already know, again. You also don't have the courtesy to acknowledge MY point, despite bleating about the reverse your end. The very glaring point that freelancing anywhere abroad is dependent on one's visa status. Breakdown for me how a one year S.H.I.S visa holder goes from a 190k a month bucket-shop job with LeoPalace accommodation, to freelancing, his own digs and new sponsorship in 12 months. I'm sure the miserly economic constraints will foster in him a thirst to work for "organisations that allow him to teach a broad curriculum based on what the students need and want." His need to eat, find money to pay bills, "service debts" and get himself in a position to get sponsorship will fall by the wayside when he gets all pensive about the pedagogical dimensions of his part-time gigs. The MA would be such a great return in his situation.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| In the UK TESOL sector (I'm limiting my examples to my direct experience: the UK and Japan, although everything I've seen and heard suggests that it's the same everywhere to a greater or lesser extent) the wages are even more of a joke - an experienced DELTA/DipTESOL holder can expect to earn �15 -20/hour, which compares, rather unfavourably, to the wages a freelancer in Japan with minimal-to-no qualifications might expect to earn in the larger cities. No included private health plan, no transportation allowances, by and large no control over curriculum... |
Now you're arguing the toss just to sound right. This is my point exactly, which goes back to having your head examined in bothering to do an MA if you can't be resourceful enough to get a job that merits the qualification. Especially when you consider the slew of opportunities for entry level stuff that pay the same. But, but, but, a moot point, nonetheless. You've lazily side-stepped the visa because it doesn�t suit keeping this going - unless, you know loads of freelancers who manage to get sponsorship without too many headaches. And while your observations about the UK ring true, I only go back for qualifications and visiting family. I wouldn't work in ELT there, unless I owned my own school or had a trainer position. The UK is pretty poor all round for standard of living, services, bang for buck, etc. - even if you're on 50k a year. You having decided to work there, and left, along with your various �trades' to fall back on, are things that make me wary of the iron-clad observations you seem insulted at me not buying into.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| At best, without being directly employed by a UK university as a lecturer on the university payscale, you're looking at �25,000 a year maximum. It should be repeated that the universities do not see EAP/language teaching as a serious revenue stream and are farming the jobs out to agencies of the likes you both rely on, or at least use, and resent. |
Your observations in the UK - your inability to secure the job you thought might exist (without having done the research), but didn't, is not indicative of the global market as a whole nor of the teaching market across Japan. And my resentment goes as far as posticuffs on a bulletin board. I�m actually milking the system nicely, thank you. Nor do your experiences in a few schools detract from the widely acknowledged observation that most ekaiwa aren't fantastic employers. And, I never got into the game to live in the UK. I don't want to go back.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| If your interest is financial, then EFL teachers are - and have been for some time - getting shafted. Hard. Everywhere. It's not going to improve any time soon. |
My interests are as 'financial' as yours, or anyone else's, in so much I need money to live, and wouldn't mind living relatively well. Again, an MA holder applying for a job that he could get without the MA, and that doesn�t even meet that basic criteria, doesn't have anything to do with that. But, it does mean he deserves to be shafted.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| If your interests are pedagogical, then you're looking at a wicked problem - the intersection of the financial models that underpin education in Japan - both public and private - and the influence of Japanese culture on the expectations and attitudes that inform the ideas the Japanese staff and the students hold about what constitutes "good practice". Unfortunately, directly challenging their views rarely leads to them seeing it your way and changing their practices in line with the ideas presented. |
I'm not proposing a solution to a wicked problem. I'm challenging YOU and your assertion that an MA holder going after 190k a month is something understandable and even worthwhile - just that you wouldn't go for it yourself. I'm critical of ekaiwa and will continue to be. And, it might be worth a look around these boards to see if there are many Japanese establishment figures here. There aren't, which is why the 'directly challenging' hyperbole is precisely that. I'm just arguing with you, because your vanity ensures me a nibble. Regardless of your wiki quote (cringe) and 'it's up to them to do it how they see fit schtick' the fact is they can't do it without us.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
There seem to be at least five other premises in your posts that aren't always explicit. From my reading of your posts, they are:
|
Aren�t always? Or just aren�t?
These premises are construed by you, from your reading, out an inability or laziness to interpret my implied message. For someone so intellectually rigorous (verbose), I would have thought it more your style to directly quote me. Oh, wait. You did. And it didn't work out. Hence, the 'list'. But that's fine Monkey; if you're seeking to pin set-in-stone statements to me because it makes the pleasure of decosntructing easier, so be it. I�ll stick to quoting you.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I may be wrong, but I don't believe I am here, so I'll respond to them: |
Of course you don't. I strongly doubt you ever have. About anything. But to 'charitably' assuage your dull need to hypothesize, I'll address your responses...
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| This is a blanket statement. You've denied you've made it, but I'm really not convinced - your entire attitude to this thread seems predicated on it. Besides, it's your job to worry about teaching and learning, not the bean counter's, isn't it? |
I see, you want to attribute a blanket statement to me, despite me stating it isn't the case. You can't quantify it with a quote, so you use your interpretation of my "attitude" as your foundation. Nice. And, it's the teacher's and the school owner's job to worry about teaching and learning. Without the joint effort they won't exist for long.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Yes, they do. I don't think I've worked for any company that didn't try to squeeze their assets as much as they could. Obviously, though, people have different ideas about what level of squeezing is tolerable and what is egregious. |
So agreeing that people have different ideas about what is tolerable and egregious makes this point moot, no? Or, did you just point this out to beef up your post?
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Again, this is relative. Yes, there are limits, which depend on personal circumstance. However, EFL teachers pretty much everywhere are rarely paid what they should be, so I feel that you're pissing into the wind. Honestly. |
It is relative, which explains yet another pointless observation built upon your need to 'let me know what's what'. I just don't agree with you. Live with it. And, while you�re at it, wipe some of that piss out of your eyes.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| You either accept that, or stop TEFLing. |
I'll decide what is reasonable for me, and I will post about it. And, I'll make my opinion on this board. What's more, I'll continue to work in TEFL, and earn what I think I deserve. There's nothing you can do about it.
Or maybe there is.
You could write in CAPS!!!
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Even 190,000 month is livable out in the countryside. Rural and small-urban Japan is not really that expensive. I know: I live there. |
Then live on it and let me know how you get on.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| [*]We are everyone else. If I can get a 5,000/hour part-time job in Fukuoka-ken, I'm damn sure I'd rather I did it than some chump who doesn't know how to teach. That's good money out here, and part of the reason that wages are going down is that there are too many unqualified, unprepared and inexperienced teachers of English in Japan. If I get the job, perhaps that's one fewer noob to worry about dragging my wages down by accepting McDonald's rates for a McDonald's product. It would be lovely to be able to charge 10,000/hour as used to be possible during the 80s, but it's just not going to happen. I will take the highest paid work I can find, even if that means eikaiwa. Besides, I rather enjoy it. |
Fair play to you. I can�t really argue with that. Although, the point of us locking horns is that qualified people are taking jobs that pay peanuts, or shall we say, money you wouldn�t take, which is very different, because that will lead to you earning less than your 5k an hour.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| A basic part of the problem is how many Japanese conceive what a teacher is and what a teacher does - ; is quite a literal term. Even my hairdresser is called so by her assistant (who has actually cut just as much hair as she has, but has been doing it for less time). The "you know English so you can teach English" attitude is pervasive. We already agree that it doesn't work, and we both hope that it disappears. I think it will, but it hasn't yet and it leads to the lamentable (from our perspective) practice of employing people who aren't fit for the job. This is the ultimate problem with EFL wages in Japan - clueless white native speakers of English aren't exactly in short supply. It would be nice if the practice of employing them stopped today, but it's not going to. |
Maybe not, and I completely agree with you. But it doesn't mean really 'qualified' bods are helping the issue by giving employers more slack to lower the bar further.
And what's the deal with the kanji? Why don't you say sensei, or at least translate it? For the people who don't understand it, they have to shuffle around and look it up. Not big, clever or cool. It�s tedious. This is an English language forum.
変な外人だね！
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I, and I'm sure many others, will do what is necessary to put food on the table, save for the future and have the occasional cup ramen. |
Do it for a 190k. Apparently it�s doable in your neck of the woods.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
I'm not so sure this is true - there is a veritable army of Japanese part-time workers who enjoy none of those benefits. My wife - at the time a full-time employee managing a fashion store in Fukuoka - earned 60,000 yen a month less than I did at the time (bog standard 25k eikaiwa wage). When she became pregnant, she phoned her manager in Tokyo. He phoned back three days later to give her the dates she would leave the company. No suggestion of maternity leave, no suggestion that she could work for another 6 months. Nowt. NADA. I was absolutely livid when I learned what had happened. |
What did you do about it? NADA? Nowt? Take him to court? Force him to fire her so she could at least get a month in lieu? Retail pays even worse than ELT. I was talking about people who studied a vocational course and entered into the field after graduation, apologies for not making that clear. My wife is a temp worker, but that is more to do with women getting a terrible deal here. That is a wicked problem for a different thread/forum.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| Conversely, I think you're being very na�ve in your expectations of your earnings and the professional environment you will find yourself in outside Japan. Seriously. If the issues under discussion here bother you in Japan, they very probably won't go away when you leave. |
Seriously, I think you�re overestimating how much I�m �bothered�. I like TEFL, earn enough, and can be flexible to the requirements of my employer. I�m not living in a perfect world and I know that as long as I fill my end of the bargain � to do the best I can by my students � I�m doing OK. I�m giving an opinion that can be taken or left on a board that doesn�t pay me, has no obligation to care about what I say, or will reward me for �post of the month�. I�ll have good and bad to say about whichever country I live and teach in. If that makes me a cynic then great.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| TEFL is a poverty trap in and of itself for a great many. |
I know it will never be mega bucks, but it doesn�t have to be hand to mouth.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| I think part of the problem you have with TEFL in Japan turns on your identity as a professional English teacher. Might I suggest that we are in a minority along with most, if not all of the regular posters on these boards? In my experience here, probably 90% of those employed as teachers - regardless of ability - leave after their first year is up. 95% leave after their second. Given that most are young graduates with no teacher training or experience, this is hardly surprising. I'm sure you've already made the connection, but this will contribute to the depressed wages and poor working conditions as long as the Japanese and world economies remain stagnant, the Japanese belief about what constitutes 'teacher' remains the same, and there is a constant stream of young graduates curious about Japan to ensure that supply outstrips demand. |
You�re repeating now, as well as stating the bloody obvious. Allow me to repeat myself, too. There are a constant stream of young graduates curious about Japan to supply any 190k job. So many, that an MA TESOL holder is not worth the headache of hiring.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
| You're the only teacher with the "brains and balls" to "escape" the trap of eikaiwa, and strike out on your own into the world of business English and direct hires. Such arrogance! . |
Relax, I know there�s only space for one ego on this thread. Along with misinterpreting so much of what I�ve written, you even lost the tongue in cheek element of this. No wonder you�ve avoided quotes for your little statement list.
You not being able to pick up on �brains and balls� as a sarcastic hack at the nominal effort it takes to get a slightly bigger piece of the pie, without relying on the same tired resources, is pretty bloody sad. But, that isn�t the saddest part of it. The tragedy is, there are people with qualifications who do these jobs and DO think they deserve better, even when they don�t bother trying. Therein lies the real arrogance.
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
I can't put this any other way:
|
No, you can�t, can you?
| Mr_Monkey wrote: |
*beep* you, pal. |
Ha ha! |
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scratchpiece27
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to stray away from the topic here... but can someone help explain currency exchange to me? It's just never made sense to me and I didn't take any classes in uni that explained it.
So... in 2008, a salary of 250,000 JPY was equivalent to about $2200 USD
Today 250,000 JPY is a little over $3,000
This means that people earning JPY have more buying power in the States, right? So this is good news for teachers currently working in Japan who are sending money OUT of Japan... I'm a bit slow 
And this is bad news for people who are vacationing in Japan because the value of their dollar (or pound) has decreased.
If the foreign teacher is keeping all of his money IN Japan, not sending it home, then the change in the value of the dollar makes no difference, right? Have prices in Japan changed drastically over the past few years?
So when I do move to Japan will it be in my best interest to pay off debt back home while the dollar is weak?
I see that today $1 = ~80 JPY
in February 2008: $1 = ~ 107 JPY
Anyone care to help the NOOB ? |
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